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Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

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Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#181
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting to note that, were they applied to physical private property, most of your arguments would clear the stealing of anything that is not bolted to the ground. So I'm trying to answer to you in this light. Who has legal property of the data in question : Obviously, Lyft. Does Uber, by accessing this data, benefit from it : obviously, yes. Do they, by accessing the data, deprive Lyft from the use of this…

>It is interesting to note that, were they applied to physical private property, most of your arguments would clear the stealing of anything that is not bolted to the ground. This is exactly the flawed analogy that incumbents use to keep anti-competitive legislation like the CFAA and extreme copyright regimes in place, but it doesn't work. >Well, our laws work like that for pretty much every other aspect of property…

> This is exactly the flawed analogy that incumbents use to keep anti-competitive legislation like the CFAA and extreme copyright regimes in place, but it doesn't work.

These problems can all be discussed in the prism of restraining property rights for public benefit (e.g. restriction of copyright for quoting). In Uber's case, though, there is no public interest in restraining Lyft's rights.

> They don't universally work like that for public places or businesses. There are significant restrictions in how access to public businesses can be restricted, as well significant accessibility and regulatory requirements before such a place is authorized to open

None of these regulation relate to liability of potential thieves, but to public safety. In our case, this would mean Lyft may be on the hook for not protecting drivers' and users' data, not that the person appropriating these data is not also on the hook.

> The mere fact that Lyft could've hypothetically charged Uber for access to these bits is not really relevant.

Property laws very specifically state that the owner is entitled to the fruit of his property. You may criticize the whole ownership system, but this is a clear cut case of Uber appropriating data that they didn't create. The only question here is whether the terms of access Lyft gave to third parties was explicit enough for Uber to understand that it had no right to this data, and whether Uber also understood this fact.

> When you open for business, you're making a deal with the community.

The nature of that deal is codified in the terms of service. While most terms of service may be seen unfair towards customers, in this case, 1) Uber is not a customer and 2) the aspects of the terms that were violated are hard to consider unfair.

There are plenty of exceptions that could/should be discussed in the scope of CFAA : scientific/historian work, hacking that benefits the customer and/or the owner, work of arts, etc. I would welcome amending the law in this light.

Uber's action fits none of these legitimate uses, and is actually a good example of why CFAA was introduced in the first place.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#182
post #67

Uber lost me as a customer if there are other options. I was in Houston this past weekend and everyone is using Uber, no one using Lyft, etc. I ended up downloading their app and using it all weekend, and uninstalled it as soon as I got to the airport. I wonder how many other cities are basically exclusively Uber currently ?

And countries. There are currently no real alternatives in Mexico.

And of course that's the strategy, right there.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today I was asked for the 10th damn time to build something that could expose a small amount of HIPAA data. The last 9 times I explained how building this feature would, at the least, require a security audit, but nobody understood why I was making such a big deal. Today, I almost said "Fuck it, if you want to make a blatantly negligent mistake then just reply to this email detailing once more how stupid this is and…

What boggles my mind is the notion that a potential HIPAA violation is some grand immorality. It's just information about somebody. It's nice to keep secret, but no great loss to society if it was made public.

Wow, you're a real piece of work.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a baseline, deception is immoral. If you want to be deceptive, you should have a good reason. Your winning a zero-sum game isn't a reason anyone else should be happy about. In the football tapes example, I don't think there is anything deceptive happening, because everyone understands that other teams are doing this. However, if it were explicitly against the rules or implicitly against established norms to review…

>In the football tapes example, I don't think there is anything deceptive happening, because everyone understands that other teams are doing this. However, if it were explicitly against the rules or implicitly against established norms to review other team's tapes, doing so and not telling the other teams is deceptive and wrong. I agree. The implicit context is that it is in-bounds to investigate your competitors thr…

Fair enough, one should be able to machine read APIs that power a public web page without fear of repercussions.

But that's not a public API that Uber was tapping into. It was a private API that requires an agreement to be signed in order to access it. Uber signed and then violated the agreement, by providing fake data through the APIs.

At the moment that the agreement was broken, their access to the API become illegal.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not weird at all. It looks pretty obviously like a pump and dump scheme. This behavior is fraud, and i bet the juiciest stuff is yet to come. I'm sure the criminal complaint coming from some US Attorney will reveal that somebody was cashing out in private markets. This is no different than a boiler room.

I don't agree with that. I think it's related to the fundamental nature of speculative capitalism. This is Uber 'virtue signaling'. With regard to stock market valuation, what humans might consider values is reversed. Stock market speculators think (or are designed to think, in the case of software agents) like sharks, not community members or citizens or team members. The equation is 'feed or die' and value is inten…

I don't think you understand the OP. Let's say I'm an investor with specific moral values. I'd accept that Uber does "anything" (from minors privacy intrusions to real criminal activity) to increase its market cap.

What the OP suggests is that the risk/reward ratio for such activities is high. The whole point of doing these activities is that they have a great reward with a small risk of being caught. If the risk of getting caught is high, and the reward is low then what's the point of doing such activities.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not weird at all. It looks pretty obviously like a pump and dump scheme. This behavior is fraud, and i bet the juiciest stuff is yet to come. I'm sure the criminal complaint coming from some US Attorney will reveal that somebody was cashing out in private markets. This is no different than a boiler room.

I don't agree with that. I think it's related to the fundamental nature of speculative capitalism. This is Uber 'virtue signaling'. With regard to stock market valuation, what humans might consider values is reversed. Stock market speculators think (or are designed to think, in the case of software agents) like sharks, not community members or citizens or team members. The equation is 'feed or die' and value is inten…

[deleted]

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#187
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CFAA is absurdly broadly worded, so much so that it's extremely easy to wield against people accused of violating it. The DoJ uses it as their hammer, if they targeted everyone who violated it the jails would be overflowing.

It would be nice if they'd target someone -- like Uber -- who really deserves to be punished for it.

Ah, but Uber can afford a legal time that could make some case law surrounding the CFAA that the DoJ doesn't want to me made.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#188
Is it just me, or would it save Uber a lot of time if they just got the lawyers to go over discovery in one pass for every project they run?

It might be erm... tantamount to admitting most of your activity is subject to legal challenge but the cost savings would be astronomical.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#189
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the party that sued are the drivers themselves who allege that collection such information is tantamount to wiretapping. I could be wrong in my interpretation though. On the other hand, I completely disagree with your last paragraph. That kind of world is my definition of hell. Winners are "happier"? On what metric? Is Lyft a "loser" company? Are it's employees losers? Who's "unhappy" in this scenario? A "win…

>On the other hand, I completely disagree with your last paragraph. That kind of world is my definition of hell. Winners are "happier"? On what metric? Is Lyft a "loser" company? Are it's employees losers? Who's "unhappy" in this scenario? A "win at all cost" culture that leaves the losers in the dust sounds like a nasty, vile dystopia. It's not "win at all costs". It's "win at some costs"; in other words, a competit…

> It's sad how HN is here demanding meticulous adherence to a clause buried deep in the incumbent's ToS and pretending that violating it is some basic moral misdeed.

Probably because the context for a "TOS violation" is very different between a large company and an individual, and because the motives for this violation are venal. And because Uber is a serial violator of pretty much every rule it comes into contact with. I doubt you'd find many here who would see a problem with, say, a researcher violating the same clause to get data for a research project.

Large companies can afford lawyers to read TOS documents. Normal people don't have the time or expertise to read them, usually. And who writes TOS documents in the first place? Large companies. It is a double standard if a company wants their TOS followed, but breaks other companies'. So it is coherent to argue that large companies have a higher burden to follow a TOS more "meticulously" than individuals do.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't need an ethics course in a university to think ethically. I've never taken one. Moral philosophy is something you either care about or don't. If you do care, it's easy to refine your thinking through the use of books by debating, though the latter is slow. The simple question 'would I be pissed off if I were on the other side of this situation?' will get you halfway home in almost every case. It is your…

I don't owe you anything. I don't have a duty to you. It's not my responsibility to be ethical toward you or to anyone else. If I were out on the street begging you for money, how much do you think you'd give me? Would you take me in, let me use your shower, eat your food, patiently wait for weeks for me to get a job? Would you treat me like family? How far will your ethics go when pushed to the limit? Now, I'd like…

> Now, I'd like to be ethical. I want to choose to be. And I'd like us all to be ethical to each other. But you should make the case that it's beneficial for people to be ethical to each other

Well, you just implicitly made your own case for ethics, one of the strongest ones, IMO: any situation where there is a tradeoff between individual gain and communal loss, ethical thinking is required. If that tradeoff doesn't exist, like the win-win situations that can be encountered in many economic situations, ethics aren't required.

Therefore it's never "beneficial" to you as an individual to be ethical in any individual situation. It's only as the ethical decisions begin to pile up across society that we see clearly it is more beneficial in the aggregate if everyone co-operates than if everyone defects.

anigbrowl is just noting some common heuristics that generate similar ethical outcomes but using simpler logic.

Anyway, I think the reason people are going beyond legality to morality here is that Uber has established a pattern of behavior over time as an actor that doesn't follow the rules and does whatever it wants. It isn't accidental; they've exhausted their reserves of good faith.

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