Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 228 posts

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#81

Post by bdcravens »

vkou wrote: post #56
dinedal wrote: post #28

How does anyone, when asked to build such a program, not raise an objection, or say something? The ethical compromise made on behalf of all involved is startling, if this is true.

I just send the rockets up, where they come down is not my department. Why do people build weapons? Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? Why do people provide services to immoral actors? Typically, the answer is money.

Are saying stakeholders aren't communicating the use case to the developers implementing these solutions?

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#82

Post by venture_lol »

leggomylibro wrote: post #14
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #2

So, no one was really able to answer my question last thread. In fact, I mostly got snarky condescending replies. I've stopped caring about such things though, so hopefully good-faith questions are still welcome: What's wrong with Uber tracking Lyft drivers? What is wrong with using a competitor's API to get real-time tactical information about them? Not only did it not harm Lyft drivers, but it actually aided them:…

It's probably an unauthorized use of the API; Lyft's API is not public, and requires a separate agreement to use. https://developer.lyft.com/docs/lyft-developer-platform-term... One section I'd draw particular attention to reads, "You Will Not: a. use the Platform or Service in any manner that is competitive to Lyft or the Service, including in connection with any application, website or other product or service that…

It's a good bet that Lyft lawyers are currently preparing and there are probably top level negotiations ongoing between Lyft and Uber regarding this area.

If there is evidence Uber attempted a bridge too far such as using the fake accounts to divert Lyft drivers or in some way impacted Lyft level of customer service, Uber can all but ask Lyft not to squeeze too hard

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#83

Post by toomuchtodo »

vkou wrote: post #74
idoh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the tax side, we neither have control over whether to pay taxes nor how it is spent, so that's not a reasonable example.

You could always move to a country which does not spend your money on behavior you object to.

Or take advantage of tax deductions and credits in your country so as to reduce or even eliminate your tax liability:

US-specific:

* EV credit: $7500

* Solar panels on your roof: 30% federal tax credit (some states have incentives as well)

* Mortgage interest/insurance

* Educational expenses

* Charity contributions

* Tax loss harvesting of non-tax advantaged investment accounts

Some of the above require itemizing.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#84

Post by venture_lol »

Chaebixi wrote: post #13
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #2

So, no one was really able to answer my question last thread. In fact, I mostly got snarky condescending replies. I've stopped caring about such things though, so hopefully good-faith questions are still welcome: What's wrong with Uber tracking Lyft drivers? What is wrong with using a competitor's API to get real-time tactical information about them? Not only did it not harm Lyft drivers, but it actually aided them:…

I would prefer businesses compete on the services they provide to their customers, not on how effectively they can sneakily torpedo their competitors (by, in this case, trying to deny them their suppliers).

You can make a good argument that's exactly what Uber did. They tried to obtain field data to make competitive decision.

Market intelligence, market research, competitive analysis, swot, opposition research, take place everyday.

The way they went about it does seem to have put them in hot water. Question is did they cross a line with serious legal and business (as in cost) ramifications?

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#85

Post by OedipusRex »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #42
spikels wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were the Lyft drivers personally identifiable? Or did they just find the location of anonomized drivers?

Personally identifiable using unique Lyft identifiers.

Which includes what?

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#86

Post by venture_lol »

zvpxdlk wrote: post #32
__jal wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what terms do you see as enforceable on a private API? If I set up a server to respond to only the people I choose, what restrictions can I make on it in your perfect world?

If you set up a server to respond to only people you choose, it's on you to make sure it's only people you choose that use it. Then you can make any restrictions you want and invalidate access for anyone who goes against your rules

So if you forgot to lock your front door, everyone can walk into your house and help themselves to your properties?

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#87

Post by sillysaurus3 »

Mz wrote: post #71
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #2

So, no one was really able to answer my question last thread. In fact, I mostly got snarky condescending replies. I've stopped caring about such things though, so hopefully good-faith questions are still welcome: What's wrong with Uber tracking Lyft drivers? What is wrong with using a competitor's API to get real-time tactical information about them? Not only did it not harm Lyft drivers, but it actually aided them:…

My opinion: This is not about the drivers. They were engaging in activity intended to be actively hostile to a competitor. That is why this is wrong. It is one thing to build a competitive business. It is another to try to actively undermine the competition, and not because your service is simply better. I get rather tired of a world in which "Well, technically, it didn't break any existing rules, so it should be oka…

Hey, good reply. Thanks! I think this convinced me.

My issue was that I see myself as a pretty moral person, but if I were working for a startup and was tasked with "Implement a way to know how many Lyft drivers are out on the road," I could see myself doing something very similar to what Uber did, and also feeling mildly clever about it. Isn't that what we call out-of-the-box thinking?

It seems like there's a fine line between being clever and being morally bankrupt. Clever hack: Using a language feature in a way it wasn't intended. Morally bankrupt: Using a competitor's API in a way it wasn't intended.

So it was really hard to work through these concerns, or even begin to address them without talking publicly about it. But bringing it up publicly seems to entail people talking down to you (see the replies to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14189381 in this thread). Just an interesting situation.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#88

Post by toomuchtodo »

OedipusRex wrote: post #85
toomuchtodo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally identifiable using unique Lyft identifiers.

Which includes what?

None of the sources I've read through itemize exactly what that means; they do mention that Uber was able to determine if a Lyft driver also drove for Uber, which means they knew the driver's personal details. Otherwise, if a Lyft driver did not also drive for Uber, I would assume they would not have personal information on the driver.

We'll find out regardless through discovery.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#89

Post by inetknght »

jansho wrote: post #27

One after the other. To put a conspiracy/playful hat on - seriously this is not my serious opinion - could it be that Uber is getting set up? Not necessarily framed but "oops, this just got leaked" set of dominoes. Apparently quite a few people are mad at Uber, like Apple, and Google, and the taxi drivers ...

That's an interesting reason for Mr. Levandowski to plead the fifth.

Re: Uber gets sued over alleged ‘Hell’ program to track Lyft drivers

#90

Post by TheCondor »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #87
Mz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion: This is not about the drivers. They were engaging in activity intended to be actively hostile to a competitor. That is why this is wrong. It is one thing to build a competitive business. It is another to try to actively undermine the competition, and not because your service is simply better. I get rather tired of a world in which "Well, technically, it didn't break any existing rules, so it should be oka…

Hey, good reply. Thanks! I think this convinced me. My issue was that I see myself as a pretty moral person, but if I were working for a startup and was tasked with "Implement a way to know how many Lyft drivers are out on the road," I could see myself doing something very similar to what Uber did, and also feeling mildly clever about it. Isn't that what we call out-of-the-box thinking? It seems like there's a fine l…

There isnt that fine of a line. That's the moral hazard, are you building something or are you working to destroy something. Frame it as the VW firmware, they didn't cheat emissions because one or two guys did some late night hackers and put some extra code in to git, there was an orchestrated effort where a lot of people thought "out side the box" and rationalized their morals.

Would it be more moral to report the API use to Lyft? Those folks are just trying to earn a living too, right? Would lent you feel just as clever reporting their vulnerability to them?

Post reply on HN