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Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

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Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#201

Post by freeflight »

Eleopteryx wrote: post #180
mikeash wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because insects have such a primitive nervous system that we don't see them as being aware in the same way that a dog is. You draw the line somewhere , right? Drawing the line at a certain complexity of the nervous system is more sensible than drawing it at "animals" in general, IMO.

>You draw the line somewhere, right Yeah, I just have to worry about higher beings justifying the termination of my primitive nervous system "for science". Perhaps my consciousness is so dim relative to theirs that it would be analogous to me squashing a bug. I hope that their methods are advanced enough that they don't need to.

>Yeah, I just have to worry about higher beings justifying the termination of my primitive nervous system "for science".

They might as well just terminate your primitive nervous system for their own nutritional needs or out of mere hunting instinct. Plenty of animals do this all the time, nature isn't romantic idealistic, it's ruthless and unforgiving.

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#202

Post by MichaelGG »

nkrisc wrote: post #11
TeMPOraL wrote: post #8

Would be good to have plastic waste broken down, but be careful not to take down our whole civilization with it. Almost everything today is made out of plastic...

In many post-apocalyptic works of fiction it's a disease that wipes out much of humanity; what if instead it was a bacteria or pest that rapidly consumes all our plastic that causes civilization to collapse?

Chevy sponsored a short film a few decades ago that looks at small version of that: What if all springs disappeared?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ttYlcrA7ys

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#203

Post by dmix »

RealityVoid wrote: post #187
badosu wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paranoic stimuli and possible unfolding of latent mental conditions can't be underestimated though.

"possible unfolding of latent mental conditions" Interesting, can you expand on this? First time I hear this. I know someone that told me of a friend of his that hid some LSD at a border crossing close to the body and as a result of the trip, the guy got severe permanent psychatric damage in that he's currently residing in an institution. I thought he was full of shit, but if what you're saying is true, he might not…

That sounds like the typical word of mouth story FUD that spreads about LSD. I'd be curious to hear more evidence of this "uncovering latent mental illness" as well.

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#204

Post by titojankowski »

dmix wrote: post #132
titojankowski wrote: post #84

I bet YC or IndieBio would jump at a project like this, great startup potential. Scaling up enzymes ftw! Anyone interested? IndieBio, $250k seed investment: http://indiebio.co/companies/

Sounds like something littered with government regulations and patents. I stay away from anything bio for that reason. Hopefully this one finds some motivated individuals who can take it to industrial scale though.

I imagine most government regulations (i.e. FDA) would apply to pharmaceuticals or medicines. Since this isn't being ingested (FDA) or grown in a field (EPA), I would think it's ok. What did you have in mind?

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#205

Post by adrr »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #195
adrr wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of all the carbon that is sequestered because of landfills. Makes you think twice when recycling paper products.

This is interesting, to someone not well informed in this, how do landfills sequester carbon?

Burying paper or other organic items. In a sense your recreating the fossil fuel cycle.

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#206

Post by greenshackle2 »

orthecreedence wrote: post #190
greenshackle2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a fully-coherent, logical system for deciding which lives to care about, and how much? I'd be interested to hear. 'Animals' is not a natural kind. There's no logical reason to care about all animals just because they are animals. I care about dogs, pigs, other people, etc. not because they're 'animals', but because I think they are plausibly conscious (to varying degrees) and they can experience joy and s…

So you argument is that it's fine to not care for insects because there are a lot of them, and because their lives are short and brutal. I would say the opposite. Animals whose lives are rife with pain and misfortune can use all the help anyone is willing to offer. Granted, I will not seek out every fly and try to "save" it. But if I come across one I can help, I will do so. I think you're making the argument "either…

> it's fine to not care for insects

Well no it's not exactly 'fine'. Maybe we will figure out some day that insects are a little bit conscious and it may turn out we have collectively been literally worse than Hitler for not caring.

In the meantime I choose not to care, not as a fully logical decision, but for my own sanity and well-being. I'm a dumb ape who tries (and even maybe succeeds) to be logical sometimes, my moral 'system' is a hodge-podge of intuition, rule-based and consequentialist thinking, I don't claim I have found a fully logical moral system.

> it's fine to not care for insects because there are a lot of them, and because their lives are short and brutal.

No no no, I'm saying, if you care at all, you should care about all of them, because as a rule their lives are short and brutal.

It's not like with humans where a lot of us have ok lives, so you can focus on the ones that have a bad time. Pretty much all insects have a bad time (if they are 'having a time' at all, i.e. if they are conscious).

I'm saying I reject caring about any one insect because it very probably leads to a repugnant conclusion (that I should care about insects above all else), based on utilitarian math -- unless you choose very very carefully how much you care about each insect.

I understand most people only care about local things. I think that's a moral failing, ideally I want to care just as much about people far away than about local people. I don't in practice but I try (I do donate to charities that help people in poor countries far from home.)

If I follow that logic and extend my caring to insects, I should care about all insects.

> I think you're making the argument "either you HAVE to care about every fly or you CANNOT care about any flies." Perhaps that logic works for you, but I think it's a fallacy

That's not my argument, that's my conclusion, based on utilitarian math, and I'm making a probabilistic argument, not a deductive logic argument, so calling it a fallacy is a type error on two counts.

> I also adhere to non-interference. If a fly is caught in a spider web, I will leave it.

What's the logic behind that? If a child stumbles into a pond and drowns, or is mauled by a wild coyote, will you let them die on the basis of non-interference?

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#207

Post by freeflight »

panste wrote: post #96
tuna-piano wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, for one, have never understood the problem with landfills. There's tons of unused space left, and landfills take up a tiny fraction of that. Who cares if we make a trash hill somewhere and styrofoam sits there for a million years?

Landfills are actually not that bad of an idea. If we someday find a way to recycle that stuff we can just dig it up again and use it. If a caterpillar eats it who knows where it ends up. In the water? In the ground? In our food? In our blood?

>If a caterpillar eats it who knows where it ends up. In the water? In the ground? In our food? In our blood?

That assumes landfills are hermetically sealed systems, they are not. We have plenty of examples where landfills contaminated the groundwater and with it large swaths of ground. It's an irresponsible practice that's pretty much based on the naive principle of "out of sight out of mind".

If the goal is to recycle it's far more advantageous to actually recycle and not mix all the garbage in a giant mess, just to hide it in some hole in the ground. That makes the job of recycling just that much more difficult because you have to pick all the stuff apart and make sure you got everything out of the ground.

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#208

Post by aoner »

Chris86 wrote: post #90
Goronmon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the biggest issue people have with landfills is that it's basically banking on the things being dumped there not having an adverse effect on the environment, ground water, etc over a long period of time. Even if no one really knew/knows/ensures what is entirely safe to dump.

Yeah, I'm not sure why anyone would think burying waste underground is an okay solution. It made sense when most household waste was fabrics, wood, old food etc but nobody stopped quick enough to evaluate the impacts when our waste got more and more toxic and non-biodegradable. I've recently move to the Netherlands from the UK and was amazed to discover they don't recycle household metal items (e.g. soft drinks cans,…

Actually you can recycle a lot of metal items (soup cans, aluminum foil, etc) together with plastic. It might depend on your city but have a look here: http://www.plasticheroes.nl/wat (sorry Dutch only)

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#209

Post by mikeash »

Falling3 wrote: post #198
mikeash wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because insects have such a primitive nervous system that we don't see them as being aware in the same way that a dog is. You draw the line somewhere , right? Drawing the line at a certain complexity of the nervous system is more sensible than drawing it at "animals" in general, IMO.

Err on the side of caution. Draw the line as far as practically possible. We have a long history of underestimating the mental abilities of other animals. Heck, now we've got evidence of ants passing the mirror test.

Do you breathe through a filter and sweep the ground in front of you like the Jains?

Re: Caterpillar found to eat shopping bags, suggesting solution to plastic pollution

#210

Post by wyldfire »

burntwater wrote: post #138
Raphmedia wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As any reptile owner will tell you, wax worms will eat through plastic containers so you should store them in glass. It's common knowledge. It is however amazing that nobody (me included) never thought that this could be a solution to our plastic issues. "It's common knowledge, why waste time thinking about it?"

It's (apparently) common knowledge among reptile owners. That doesn't mean it's common knowledge among the particular scientists studying how to decompose plastics. Siloed knowledge will always be a problem (at least among humans. With omnipresent AI, that could change...).

A day in the life of the omnipresent AI's keeper involves a lot of "Oh, no, sorry, CleverBot2000, we can't solve that global problem that way. This domain's model is incomplete, I guess."
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