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Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

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Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#21

Post by jacquesm »

Replacing a general purpose programming language with a language that really should have only one application (front-end web development) is a huge mistake. And there are many other, much better alternatives. Python would be fine, java isn't perfect but not all bad either, clojure could be interesting.

Python would have the added advantage that you can go in many different directions from data structures and basics to machine learning, web development or analysis and it probably would come in very handy when collaborating with other students.

Universities that pick javascript for an introduction to programming are making a choice of convenience rather than one that is best for their students.

Well, at least they'll have plenty of bad habits to unlearn later on.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#22

Post by csciutto »

ashnehete wrote: post #8
anthonybsd wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I'd consider a decision to move from Java to JavaScript an improvement. They are going from a bloated syntax to a bad-habit goldmine. Why not go Java -> Python instead?

I agree. Although JS is a powerful language, it is not suitable to teach in an introductory environment. How about C? It makes the student grasps not only logical constructs but also introduce a portion of computer organisation and architecture.

The Stanford curriculum goes from Java to C++ to C in the first core year of classes.

Our final project is a memory Allocator (Malloc, Realloc, Free). By the end, students really do grasp computer organization and architecture.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#23

Post by jug »

I belong to the Java generation but thought it was very clean and nice, promoting good OOP practices. That was in 1998 though and Java was helmed by Sun, and we used something like Java 1.0-1.3. I can understand someone jumping into Java of today could feel far more overwhelmed. So maybe this hasn't always been a truth, but a truth that has been growing?

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#24

Post by dvt »

The move to JS is a great one (although I'm sure many will disagree). When I was first learning programming, half the fun was seeing stuff happen on the screen. Doing programming in HyperCard[1] is one of the fondest memories I have of learning how to write code. And HyperTalk (like JS) wasn't really a "good" programming language, but it was a fun one.

JavaScript has easy access to the DOM, Canvas, and even OpenGL, which should make it a great introductory language. People are able to easily build more interesting stuff than yet another mortgage calculator.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#25

Post by madarcho »

Learnt with Python, Uni intro went Haskell (which I know is done at a few others) + Java later in the year as an OO fundamentals language.

JS is a very poor alternative, but it's better than the French High School system that introduced it's own completely demented "Algorithm Language" AlgoBox. So many of my classmates swore to never touch programming because "It's difficult and pointless".

That first contact is incredibly crucial, and I don't think JS is the answer.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#26

Post by cillian64 »

ashnehete wrote: post #8
anthonybsd wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I'd consider a decision to move from Java to JavaScript an improvement. They are going from a bloated syntax to a bad-habit goldmine. Why not go Java -> Python instead?

I agree. Although JS is a powerful language, it is not suitable to teach in an introductory environment. How about C? It makes the student grasps not only logical constructs but also introduce a portion of computer organisation and architecture.

I've taught introductory programming to undergraduates in both C and Python at different times. In my experience students struggle to grasp computer architecture and memory management at the same time as learning to think like a computer and formulate ideas in code. They have coped much better with Python and enjoyed how time/effort is spent solving useful problems rather than boilerplate.

Ideally they would all learn about computer architecture and memory management at some point. But at least with this course motivation and interest is a big problem, and producing confident Python programmers seems a better result than terrified students who can't produce competent C.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#27

Post by delecti »

anthonybsd wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I'd consider a decision to move from Java to JavaScript an improvement. They are going from a bloated syntax to a bad-habit goldmine. Why not go Java -> Python instead?

Agreed. Java was my intro language, and probably my favorite (those are probably related); conversely, I still haven't gotten the hang of Python, and it's one of my least favorite languages, but I still recognize that Python is a massively better first language than Javascript of all things.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#28

Post by pmarreck »

anthonybsd wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I'd consider a decision to move from Java to JavaScript an improvement. They are going from a bloated syntax to a bad-habit goldmine. Why not go Java -> Python instead?

I'm good with it. The more people they crank out learning the wrong languages, the more value I have working with the right ones. :P

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#29

Post by ashnehete »

csciutto wrote: post #22
ashnehete wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Although JS is a powerful language, it is not suitable to teach in an introductory environment. How about C? It makes the student grasps not only logical constructs but also introduce a portion of computer organisation and architecture.

The Stanford curriculum goes from Java to C++ to C in the first core year of classes. Our final project is a memory Allocator (Malloc, Realloc, Free). By the end, students really do grasp computer organization and architecture.

Mumbai University curriculum goes from C to Java (actually its more of Object Oriented Methodology) and then we have a separate subject for Computer Organisation and Architecture. This is in 3 contiguous semesters. By the end, we know from low-level to high-level.

Re: Universities finally realize that Java is a bad intro programming language

#30

Post by misingnoglic »

atarian wrote: post #18
anthonybsd wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I'd consider a decision to move from Java to JavaScript an improvement. They are going from a bloated syntax to a bad-habit goldmine. Why not go Java -> Python instead?

Because you only need a browser. When you're just a beginner, setting up an environment can be extremely painful.

With python you just need a browser too: www.repl.it/python
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