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The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

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141–150 of 155 posts

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#141
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha! So true. And nutrition in particular seems to be something the tech-literate crowd seems to want to "hack". It's always fascinating to read threads in HN about dietary supplements or keto-this-or-that or paleo diets or how it's better if you only sleep 2 hours per day total and only drink special shakes made by some dodgy startup, all of this frequently debated with religious reverence.

Nutrition makes a lot of sense, when you consider just how much time the average person spends around food - you're generally reminded of nutrition three times a day. It's a large aspect of health, money, and comfort (see: going to the toilet), and frankly there isn't very thorough consensus (it's been suggested that the food pyramid is biased by commercial interests of the time), and what's more, most people aren't…

Indeed, it makes sense to be interested in nutrition. What's funny is that most people commenting here on HN are out of their depths and talk about nutrition, supplements, bizarre shakes, fad diets, keto, calorie restriction or whatnot with the same pseudoscientific beliefs as other non-HN people discuss astrology ("but it really works!"). They "don't know that they don't know" and believe the most bizarre things. That's very relevant to the article and also to the OP's comment at the top of this subthread :)

PS: lest I sound too arrogant, nutrition is not my particular blind spot (I'm aware I don't know much about it), but I'm sure I have other blind spots I'm not aware of!

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#142
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is entirely possible for people on one side of a particular discussion to be on more epistemologically solid ground than people on another side of a discussion in a general sense. If I'm reading you right (which I may not be) it seems that you're saying this is not the case. It's not a controversial or particularly interesting fact that everyone is human and therefore prone to weaknesses in reasoning that…

>I think it is entirely possible for people on one side of a particular discussion to be on more epistemologically solid ground than people on another side of a discussion in a general sense. Sure, that's possible and common. But it's still just as easy to mislead secular persons as it is to mislead religious people. >one can make a moderately successful effort to reduce these weaknesses somewhat through disciplined…

Academia is just as vulnerable to bias and groupthink as anything else.

I don’t equate “academia” with the scientific method. In fact, the two are often opposed to each other. But since that is where you want to go with it, I would question this sentence of yours as a false equivalency. I submit that “academia”, as much as you can think of it as a single institution (of dirty liberal elites or whatever), is definitely vulnerable to bias and groupthink (even to an astonishing amount, depending on your preconceptions), but your idea that it is just as vulnerable to bias and groupthink as literally anything else is not true. For example, I can substitute “flat-earthers” for your “anything else” and it becomes very clear that flat-earthers as a group are much more susceptible to bad ideas than “academia” as a group.

Merely pointing out the failings of scientific practitioners, of which there are copious amounts, is not an argument for putting the scientific method on equal ground with religion. Appeals to authority is not equivalent to the scientific method, and it is not the only reason why one would trust it over the declarations of religions. Perhaps you might be one of those people who thinks that because science refines its scientific theories over time, that they are “always changing their minds”, rather than creating more accurate models. Maybe you might be one to say that evolution, for example, is “just a theory”?

One can easily see the kind of bullshit that exists within the scientific community without being so unwise as to think that makes it just as credible as any other source of information. I could talk your ears off about what annoys me about the research community, but you’re probably fairly well versed in that, since you make it an important part of discrediting them as a whole. Ultimately what annoys me about them is precisely the ways in which they deviate from the scientific method in order to advance their goals of getting published and recognized. There are bad incentive systems in place in academia that make it so that papers with no real substance get published; negative results are polished like turds to pretend like they were looking for a different result the whole time. Bad statistical methods are used to obfuscate; no actual reproduction of results are being done in large swaths of the field; scientific journalism hypes single paper results to the detriment of science in the public’s eye. I could keep going. Yet still these failings do not even hold a candle to the actively misleading aspects of religion.

You may be operating under the belief that religious proclamations occur based on the whims of religious leaders, but this is no more true than the claim that academic proclamations occur based on the whims of academic leaders.

Many religious proclamations actually are made up whole cloth by religious leaders. Take Joseph Smith, for instance. When someone invents their own religion, it is called a cult in the beginning, but that pejorative eventually goes away after the founder dies and the organization evolves and achieves more mainstream success.

However, it isn’t terribly important whether religious proclamations come freshly made up from a single person or if they are evolved from legends and handed down from earlier generations. What’s important is their epistemological foundation. “God says so” seems to be the sum of it. The evidence? Emotional reasoning and appeals to just having faith.

credible religious edicts are works of real and serious scholarship.

I don’t know what “scholarship” is supposed to mean in this sentence. Just because a person studies something does not mean that the studying was done properly or that the subject matter or learned material has any merit whatsoever. I’m not aware of any religious edicts that have revealed any new knowledge to the world and have met their burden of proof. I am aware of a whole lot of edicts that have not.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#143
post #98
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side…

> I have done a 180 on so many positions Care to give any examples and the reasons for your first position and subsequent change?

I used to be a very conservative religious person. I had a whole package of beliefs that were ingrained into me from birth, and I grew into them and claimed them as my own. I thought that homosexuality was very damaging to society. I thought that human caused climate change was either fake or that there was nothing to worry about even if it were true. I did not believe that humans evolved, or at least I was somewhat conflicted about that. I thought that creationism belonged in schools. At one point in my early twenties I even listened to Rush Limbaugh and agreed with him (I cringe every time I remember that). I knew so many things, and I was happy to know them.

I also liked to think analytically and enjoyed the intellectual stimulation I got from certain online forums (this one included). I liked how people would trade counterarguments and keep each other honest by pointing out bad thinking or logical fallacies. When someone would argue against something I believed in, I would argue back. From their perspective, my mind was not being changed and they were wasting their time, but from my perspective, the things they would call me out on stuck with me. I tried to avoid falling into logical fallacies and bad arguments because I knew I'd be called out on them. This restricted the ways I had to justify my beliefs, so that made it challenging. Then at church I noticed that nobody was being held to these standards at all, and fallacious reasoning was being let fly freely and constantly. I experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance during that point in my life which ultimately led to deeper investigation and study. I give a lot of credit to honest online debaters who pushed back on my ideas and kept me honest about the substance of my arguments.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whew. First result for me on this one: https://www.google.ca/search?num=20&safe=off&q=how+harmful+i... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread73547/pg1 yikes.

Please don't link that shit here. It increases it's pagerank. Or at least put a space in the url or something. It's completely infuriating. I mean if I didn't know anything about HIV or medical research, that would sound completely plausible. I went in expecting to read batshit insane conspiracy theories. And I'm surprised how sane it sounds. That's scary.

it doesn't increase it's page rank, at least on google, it has the rel="nofollow" attribute.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#145
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side…

The issue is that most people on social media aren't looking for enlightenment, they're looking for validation. If they don't find it from one source they'll likely seek out a more suitable one. The only one who can change a person's mind is that person, all the rest of us can do is encourage.

If the people are participating in social media forums where debate happens or can happen (without it being considered rude), then they have not yet fully enclosed themselves into a comfortable echo chamber. If they aren't just there to troll, and seem to be engaging honestly, then debating with them is not a waste of time. Nobody is going to change their mind to match yours during one single online discussion (unless they come in wanting to have their minds changed and experience a lot of social pressure to admit to it, a la /r/changemyview). The audience matters, and even the person you're arguing with will likely remember the points you made, even if only to counter them, the next time they voice their opinion. The same goes for us. We learn more about their side and where they're coming from each time, and that counts for something.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this whole argument hinge on the notion that children don't have a right to life/medical care outside of the context of the agency of their parents? If they do, doesn't it follow that parents denying appropriate medical care to their children (on whatever grounds) is tortiously negligent and therefore ought to be prosecuted? "We can surely educate others without inflicting even more damage on those poor, grie…

I can scarcely imagine the pain of losing a child and knowing that it was due to my negligence. Do you seriously think that, on top of all this suffering, the risk of a custodial sentence would add further disincentive? I am not arguing that these parents were not idiotic, just that their further punishment can serve no purpose. We may have to agree to disagree though.

I mean, for the parents in question the ship has already sailed. I don't think it's a bad idea for parents who are engaged in clearly negligent behavior to be prosecuted (hopefully before something like this happens.)

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#147
Today, people around the world marched in the name of science. Back in 1969 we put a man on the moon, and in 2017 we're having to march in the name of science.This appears to be one giant leap backwards for mankind.

The age of the printing press coincided with the age of reason. Is the age of the internet the harbinger of an age of disinformation, alternative facts, and ignorance?

This post looks at that very possibility, and if so, is the future taking us backwards? Are we devolving as a species?

https://jimdroberts.wordpress.com/2017/04/23/the-information...

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#148

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant…

In his book, "Amusing Ourselves to Death," Neil Postman suggests that the age of the printing press coincided with the age of reason.

The Internet is perhaps the invention that most closely parallels the invention of the printing press. But, unfortunately the Internet appears to be working paradoxically to the development of knowledge.

Is the age of the internet the harbinger of an age of disinformation, alternative facts, and ignorance?

Is it possible that the Internet could cause our cognitive devolution as a species?

https://jimdroberts.wordpress.com/2017/04/23/the-information...

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#149

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant…

In his book, "Amusing Ourselves to Death," Neil Postman suggests that the age of the printing press coincided with the age of reason.

The Internet is perhaps the invention that most closely parallels the invention of the printing press. But, unfortunately the Internet appears to be working paradoxically to the development of knowledge.

Is the age of the internet the harbinger of an age of disinformation, alternative facts, and ignorance?

Is it possible that the Internet could cause our cognitive devolution as a species?

https://jimdroberts.wordpress.com/2017/04/23/the-information...

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#150
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a variation on this is a key factor of life and culture in engineering - at some point, either what you made works, or it doesn't. You can argue, debate, philosophize and talk, but at the end of the day - there's either a working thing someone else can look at, or there's not. (I imagine this is true in other places - sales, business, design - it just gets increasingly hard to tell "if it worked")

You're right, but sales, business and design have too many variables involved in the apparent success of what you make, so you're not able to safely verify what "worked". Even in engineering, two people can make something that "works", but which one is better? Maybe the worst product had the better marketing, so it sold more and in the end there are more people praising it, then you'll think it is better.

We're in agreement.

It's a filter, not a metric: you can say this product worked, as in it did what it said on the tin, but the worse/better comparison doesn't work out.

The other aspect of "at some point you can just build it and it works or doesn't" is that when it's built, you can (ideally) just go read the code and find out how it works. It's ye olde issue of "it would take me almost as long to explain it as to make it..." - if I'm having trouble communicating an idea, I can just go make it, and then show it to you.

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