Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies • Hacker News Board

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#181

Post by burntsushi » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:45 PM UTC

whopa wrote: post #168

whopa wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The differences between Python and Haskell only affect programmers and people who employ programmers. The difference between the two parties approach to health care affects everybody in the US. It's not simply a matter of perspective.

People who can't distinguish between the meaningful impact of the differences between the two parties approach to health care are not paying attention or willfully ignorant. Bringing out the trope perpetuates this. It's a real problem.

I'm trying to explain a perspective that is clearly different from yours. You're free to reject it of course, but snubbing your nose at it doesn't seem productive. It certainly won't make it go away, no matter how much you declare it to be a trope.

> not paying attention or willfully ignorant

I love how you've left out a third choice, which is, "they just disagree with me and my own economic forecasts." You know you've really gone down an interesting road when the only way someone can disagree with you is if they're a boob (accidental or not).

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#182

Post by jpindar » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:51 PM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #156

valuearb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where has economies of scale hurt? ISPs are a special case because regulations make it difficult or impossible for competitors to run cable. But economies of scale turned cars, PCs, consumer electronics, air travel, etc, from rich peoples play toys into affordable products for the masses. As consolidation hit all those industries their products merely got cheaper and in most cases, far better.

Walmart. Walmart has destroyed thousands of businesses. Now you can argue the consumer got lower prices, but low prices don't matter when no one has money to afford them. Additionally, those economies of scale produced cheap, disposable, polluting goods that have an engineered lifetime so that customers have to keep buying the same appliance (or whatever) over and over. The question isn't when economies of scale hurt…

How does Wal-mart stay in business if "no one has money to afford them"?

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#183

Post by valuearb » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:52 PM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #157

valuearb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always found it interesting that the middle class in the US grew immensely wealthier during the period US Steel and Standard Oil were "monopolies".

How do you figure? Most historians credit the rise of the middle class to the post-war boom in the 50s. Standard Oil and US Steel were broken up during the Roosevelt and Taft administrations in the early 20th century.

When JD Rockefeller was growing up, the average American rode a horse (if lucky), never traveled more than a few miles from home, few had even been on a train. Sailing ships were the main and dangerous form of sea transport. 95% of Americans worked brutal farm labor jobs. Homes were lit by candle and whale oil, and heated with firewood.

By the time Standard Oil was broken up, railroads were everywhere, steel ships ruled the sea, cars roamed the roads. Homes were lit by electricity. Energy consumption had skyrocketed because the costs (esp. the cost of oil) had plummeted. Labor saving devices increased productivity and the standard of living, and were made possible by cheaper steel as well as cheaper energy.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#184

Post by valuearb » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:53 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #149

valuearb wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A restaurant that agrees to exclusively accept Mastercard would be out of business very quickly (no matter how much Mastercard lowered its fees for them). That's why we don't have to regulate such behavior.

So what you're saying is that market forces prevent this behavior that harms consumers and pushes an inferior product?

I'm saying I don't know what market forces allow an Applebees to survive.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#185

Post by masklinn » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:55 PM UTC

ericHosick wrote: post #113

Qwertious wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'People need to stop wishing for the "free" market. The term is abused by orators and manipulators who prey on peoples desire for a market which is free in the spirit of the word, and deliver to them a market which is technically "free" and horrible.' Don't call it the free market. Call it what it is: COMPETITION. "Free market" implies "I can do what I want", but frankly we don't WANT people to be free to pull anti-c…

> "Free market" implies "I can do what I want" I always though free implied free from non-consensual acts. It's not much of a free market if your actions are non-consensual (1). (1) Defining what makes an action consensual is difficult but doable.

"Consent or die" is not a choice, but on free market it is.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#186

Post by valuearb » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

stinkytaco wrote: post #163

valuearb wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obamacare made private medical insurance illegal, so millions of self employed lost coverage from that. The exchange policies have increased in cost so rapidly they are unaffordable for anyone not getting a massive subsidies. Many self employed are now without insurance because of that.

It's illegal? Or it doesn't meet the minimum qualifications for the tax benefit, because those are quite different. https://www.healthcare.gov/private-plan-exceptions-outside-o... As to costs, those vary widely by state. This recent article in the NYTimes was a fairly good overview of how policy decisions can affect the premiums: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/21/health/how-gop-in-2-state...

Illegal. The reason my families health insurance was $400 a month was because the insurer could exclude pre-existing conditions. That's no longer allowed. And I'm self employed.

The ban on pre-existing conditions was done either because the drafters of Obamacare have no clue what insurance actually is, or they actually wanted to destroy health insurance. No one is going to pay for coverage when healthy if they can sign up when sick.

Our first year of Obamacare was $1,100 a month for the same level of coverage as our banned $400 plan. The second year was $1,400 a month. This year the only available plan had the same $5k a year deductible, and was $1,800 month. So we don't have medical insurance any more.

The NY Times link is LOL, I notice how it didn't track how exchange prices have exploded. New Mexico's exchange is going to get crushed like all the others, it can't stop rational behavior. It will soon have to subsidize everyone or all self employed people will be out.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#187

Post by darpa_escapee » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

ericHosick wrote: post #113

Qwertious wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'People need to stop wishing for the "free" market. The term is abused by orators and manipulators who prey on peoples desire for a market which is free in the spirit of the word, and deliver to them a market which is technically "free" and horrible.' Don't call it the free market. Call it what it is: COMPETITION. "Free market" implies "I can do what I want", but frankly we don't WANT people to be free to pull anti-c…

> "Free market" implies "I can do what I want" I always though free implied free from non-consensual acts. It's not much of a free market if your actions are non-consensual (1). (1) Defining what makes an action consensual is difficult but doable.

That's the American libertarian definition.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#188

Post by wavefunction » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #148

bluejekyll wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AHCA, Obamacare is definitely better than before, it guarantees open access to many who didn't have it before. A good thing. But it didn't go far enough. It played in to the corporate healthcare system demands by not offering a competitive public option. The so called Blue Dog democrats blocked that, which is such a shame. Far better than anything the Republicans have put on the table. The problem is that we basicall…

Obamacare increased the cost of my families healthcare from $400 a month to $1800 a month, and now my family doesn't have long term healthcare insurance. So please keep telling me how it's better.

So what else changed. Did you get more coverage for things? What happened to your premium? How much did you use your $400 insurance (i.e. did it actually provide coverage.)

Price is an important aspect to health-care but devoid of any other information it doesn't mean much.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#189

Post by valuearb » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

backtoyoujim wrote: post #52

lawrencewu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you are getting downvoted because you're absolutely right. The first three markets named (airlines, telecommunications, health care) are all heavily regulated and the barrier to entries are controlled by the government, not natural market forces. Monopolies are not all bad. Sometimes a company has a monopoly because they just offer a better product (Amazon, Google) and they shouldn't be punished for…

Amazon is a infested with scam storefronts. And Amazon is really compelled to do anything about it because they have no competition. Airlines have huge market barriers: getting and maintaining huge, expensive, gas guzzling aircraft. That is not a regulation barrier. Both telecomm and health care are intwined monopsonies backing the play of regional monopolies (cartels) backing federal congresspeople. I just don't buy…

Airlines have new entrants all the time. Sure it's costly to start a new airline, but not by the standards of available capital. But there are also lots of regulatory barriers, available landing slots and terminals for example. For some reasons we think it necessary to have government run airports.

Amazon has to compete with other online retailers and local retailers. How many scams it allows is a measure of it's competence, not it's market power. If I get scammed on Amazon they are getting a charge-back and will have to deal with my credit card company.

Re: Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies

#190

Post by Noos » Sun, Apr 23, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

bluejekyll wrote: post #123

whopa wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care is squarely an economic/business issue that affects nearly everybody, and there are clear, meaningful differences between the two parties here.

AHCA, Obamacare is definitely better than before, it guarantees open access to many who didn't have it before. A good thing. But it didn't go far enough. It played in to the corporate healthcare system demands by not offering a competitive public option. The so called Blue Dog democrats blocked that, which is such a shame. Far better than anything the Republicans have put on the table. The problem is that we basicall…

It is not better at all. The deductibles increased tremendously, and it wound up turning normal insurance into expensive catastrophic insurance. Many poor people are worse off under it, because at least before it was possible to pay for insurance with a decent deductible as part time help. Now most of them just eat the tax penalty (or avoid it, there is a provision where it can be waived if you demonstrate it's literally too expensive to afford) and have no insurance at all.

The solution would be employer-matched health savings accounts for casual care, with mandatory from 18-up catastrophic insurance at low premiums.