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Android, evolvability and Comcast

abe-winter.github.io

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Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#21

Post by warcher »

Man, I knew this was a troll when I clicked the link. I'll briefly vent my spleen and get on with a substantive comment.

I get real tired of web soft boys coming into native and complaining about how complicated it is on the metal. This stuff is hard cause you're not just churning html. It's harder work than writing a web page. Sorry.

Specifically, mobile is resource constrained in a way that server-side work just isn't. Your render thread is a hot thread, and you better not jam it up. That one singular concept is the underlying cause of so, so much of the obfuscation and confusion associated with mobile development.

But that's the gig.

No, switching to javascript won't fix it. Switching to javascript will actually make it much worse, as the kinds of industrial grade tools available to make concurrency manageable (though prone to removing fingers from script kiddies or the unwary), to manage memory, to deal with a database directly, to deal with bluetooth devices, on and on are wholly unavailable, or worse still, are abstraction libraries that require you to fluently deal with both your javascript interface and some really deep native interop libraries, lest you be entrapped in cut-and-paste script kiddiehood.

I could go on at length about the myriad pitfalls and difficulties associated with mobile development, but the simple fact is that doing something cool is hard work.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#22

Post by awinter-py »

warcher wrote: post #21

Man, I knew this was a troll when I clicked the link. I'll briefly vent my spleen and get on with a substantive comment. I get real tired of web soft boys coming into native and complaining about how complicated it is on the metal. This stuff is hard cause you're not just churning html. It's harder work than writing a web page. Sorry. Specifically, mobile is resource constrained in a way that server-side work just is…

Then don't switch to JS, switch to C++ as the primary dev language. The performance-sensitive parts of the OS are already in C++ and the NDK exists, so this isn't that big a jump in terms of support from the android maintenance team.

C++ is not slower than java on constrained hardware, also is more respectful of memory. Is it harder to use? I don't think so but I may be in the minority here.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#23

Post by [deleted] »

warcher wrote: post #21

Man, I knew this was a troll when I clicked the link. I'll briefly vent my spleen and get on with a substantive comment. I get real tired of web soft boys coming into native and complaining about how complicated it is on the metal. This stuff is hard cause you're not just churning html. It's harder work than writing a web page. Sorry. Specifically, mobile is resource constrained in a way that server-side work just is…

[deleted]

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#24

Post by reilly3000 »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #7
vikeri wrote: post #4

The solution is called React Native. - Single file app: Check - Super fast rebuild: Check - Dynamic language (high reusability and one-liners): Check (Use ClojureScript to take this even further)

There is something seriously wrong with our industry. How can this even be suggested as a solution?

Because Facebook has thrown tens of millions of dollars towards getting a unified cross platform method of having 60fps rich mobile apps. Because managing an app of more than trivial complexity on iOS and Android is massively expensive. Because this approach offers the most leverage with the least trade offs of performance, development overhead, and future viability.

And because live coding mobile apps with a REPL is epic.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#25

Post by [deleted] »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #7
vikeri wrote: post #4

The solution is called React Native. - Single file app: Check - Super fast rebuild: Check - Dynamic language (high reusability and one-liners): Check (Use ClojureScript to take this even further)

There is something seriously wrong with our industry. How can this even be suggested as a solution?

[deleted]

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#26

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

ashark wrote: post #19

My advice to a new Android developer: 1) The way things are done in the docs is often wrong on fundamental levels. Using libraries from the android team for e.g. network comm is often wrong , even if it's "new and friendlier" (nope). 2) The docs are often outdated. Also their examples are always for exactly not the case you need. 100% of the time. 3) Stackoverflow posts are often outdated. 4) You will eventually hit…

Based on your post I can't ever imagine wanting to develop Android apps.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#27

Post by devgutt »

ashark wrote: post #19

My advice to a new Android developer: 1) The way things are done in the docs is often wrong on fundamental levels. Using libraries from the android team for e.g. network comm is often wrong , even if it's "new and friendlier" (nope). 2) The docs are often outdated. Also their examples are always for exactly not the case you need. 100% of the time. 3) Stackoverflow posts are often outdated. 4) You will eventually hit…

But you can always check the code easily and figure out how something actually works. Not the best solution, but it saved me more than once when the documentation or stack overflow doesn't suffice.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#28

Post by awinter-py »

vt240 wrote: post #17
awinter-py wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(author here). You're right that it takes more than a month to get a handle on tricks tools & quirks in a new language / buildsystem. That said, if you drop me in a dumpster I can tell immediately that it's a hot day. The forum content around the android problems that I had show that the same problems have been cropping up for years with no improvement. I don't doubt there are real reasons for the rigidity of android…

No experience on andriod, but I really enjoyed your analogies. Fun to read.

Thanks! Your acoustics business looks awesome.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#29

Post by wvenable »

warcher wrote: post #21

Man, I knew this was a troll when I clicked the link. I'll briefly vent my spleen and get on with a substantive comment. I get real tired of web soft boys coming into native and complaining about how complicated it is on the metal. This stuff is hard cause you're not just churning html. It's harder work than writing a web page. Sorry. Specifically, mobile is resource constrained in a way that server-side work just is…

> I get real tired of web soft boys coming into native and complaining about how complicated it is on the metal.

I've done a lot of native development, real native development, not this fluffy Java stuff and Android is still overly complicated in both design and tooling.

My needs as a developer on Android are far from cool and that shouldn't be unnecessarily hard -- but it is.

Re: Android, evolvability and Comcast

#30

Post by tumblen »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #7
vikeri wrote: post #4

The solution is called React Native. - Single file app: Check - Super fast rebuild: Check - Dynamic language (high reusability and one-liners): Check (Use ClojureScript to take this even further)

There is something seriously wrong with our industry. How can this even be suggested as a solution?

If a key problem is the need to build every app for multiple platforms, why wouldn't an abstraction layer be a valid approach?

Sure there have been some failed attempts in the past but why not encourage RN? Clearly it's working for many applications and being actively developed.

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