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The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

nymag.com

51–60 of 155 posts

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#51

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

It's not that people "haven't learned to think". It's that their perception of reality is driven by their ego. It must be understood that this is the case with all mentally competent people . An ego's appetite can be trained and controlled, but generally speaking, everyone wants to see themselves in the same basic, overwhelmingly positive way. When an "empiricist" comes into the fray, they've trained their ego's appe…

> Disclaimer: I have no research or supporting evidence, this is pure conjecture, and there is no reason at all why you should listen to me.

Damn... while I was reading your post I was yelling "I buy it! I buy it!" in my head, and then it turns out you don't have anything more to sell? :(

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#52

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

But that probably includes you. You are not immune to this. Actually the entire human specie is subject to it, and regularly discover it's been wrong about incredibly important topic, at the level of a small group, a community, a country or the entire planet. As an individual, you have most probably a huge number of things you just believe and never try to challenge. And among that, many that, if challenged by someon…

>But that probably includes you.

Absolutely, there must be things I think are true which are not. And particularly there must be opinions I would find hard to change. I don't deny that.

For instance the whole religion thing, I'd probably take it with a rather large grain of salt if god appeared and started giving evidence for himself, even though I think of myself as someone who is swayed mainly by evidence.

But I also think, perhaps wrongly, that we can actually learn things about our world, and the way to do that is roughly what we call science. And currently, a lot of people simply cannot think in this way. They don't have the evidence that hordes of scientists have gathered, and they don't possess the thinking skills to process what they're told when they come across new evidence. Irrespective of what my own personal knowledge gaps are.

>All in all, you can't start to change the world unless you recognize your own failures in the other people.

I don't believe in this pseudo-psychological idea we need to understand ourselves before we can learn anything about the world, or start to change it. Plenty of people have changed the world for the better without themselves having a complete understanding of their own biases. How could we know anything, if not in small pieces?

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#53

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

Ignorance and scepticism are a double edge sword. The problem is absence of curated information. The fact that she believed in how homeopatic medicine worked, or that he believed in aura cleansing, has nothing to do with the capability of the method itself, but with the source of knowledge for the carrier of the method. There are alternative medicine that work wonders, there are concepts of aura. The application of the method is wrong: non physical nature of the aura concept presented via foreign means to the method itself: a device. Or, the context is wrong: general immune system boost with alternative medicine will also cover the fact that her organism could fight off a specific case of infection. While she is ignorant in why that might have worked, I would not equate the method with the application of the method in your post.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#54

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

Both of your examples are things that have been common forever. There were germ theory skeptics, still are, that ignored the science showing how many deaths doctor hand washing prevented. And radiation healers were massive in the early twentieth century.

But before the internet you had to go out of your way to find a second snakeoil salesman. In the internet age, they can be your whole village.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#55
Ranking systems help solve this. For example in games. Even in 5v5 games better players will eventually get to the top, because they will cause more games to be won in aggregate over their career. Similarly, systems of apprenticeship, and rankings found in things like martial arts and sports.

The problem is that we need 100,000 doctors, some of them will be more informed than others. The less informed ones will cause the other's to look worse. A doctor is still more informed, but when there are disagreements, it would be useful to know the relative standing of them. It would help with these sorts of problems.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#56
post #7

"The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” — Bertrand Russell

The fundamental difference between modernism and traditionalism is that modernists see doubtful intelligent people and cocksure stupid people whereas the traditionalists see a group of people; the traditionalists observe that when you turn on the stupid lamp, they act stupid, and when you turn on the intelligent lamp, they act intelligent. Actually, this "acting" is a matter of perspective. You were told to see them act stupid or intelligent by some higher power.

The traditionalists are quite confident that the lights are the source of the difficulty whereas the modernists are determined to keep their manichaean glasses on and see a human being as a source of light rather than a network of filters of light.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#57
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with. you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investmen…

As someone who has changed his mind, I've found that it is wrong to think that minds can't be changed. When people complain about how minds aren't changed, they are typically complaining about minds not changing now , i.e. At the point of debate. But minds can change over time, it's just that you don't get that immediate feedback that you want.

Minds can be changed. For one, propaganda does work. If only minds could be changed using more honest means... Granted, education works too, to some degree. But that requires even more work on both parts.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with. you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investmen…

> you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. The problem is when this wrong headedness starts to interfere at a public policy level, like climate change.

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Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that probably includes you. You are not immune to this. Actually the entire human specie is subject to it, and regularly discover it's been wrong about incredibly important topic, at the level of a small group, a community, a country or the entire planet. As an individual, you have most probably a huge number of things you just believe and never try to challenge. And among that, many that, if challenged by someon…

>But that probably includes you. Absolutely, there must be things I think are true which are not. And particularly there must be opinions I would find hard to change. I don't deny that. For instance the whole religion thing, I'd probably take it with a rather large grain of salt if god appeared and started giving evidence for himself, even though I think of myself as someone who is swayed mainly by evidence. But I al…

>But I also think, perhaps wrongly, that we can actually learn things about our world, and the way to do that is roughly what we call science. And currently, a lot of people simply cannot think in this way.

I disagree. I think that people contort themselves to find ways to see themselves as internally consistent precisely because they are rational within the inescapable prison of their own perception.

The issue really comes down to causation/credibility. Human psychology will cause each person to strongly favor whatever causal explanations best satisfy their biases.

Your example with religion is a good one. For purposes of this argument, let's assume that event actually did occur and it was not a hallucination.

To a religious person, the event would be a well-deserved manifestation given as a reward for their years of faithful observance, and they would likely continue stronger than ever in their convictions, fully satisfied that their position had been irrefutably proven.

But to a strongly non-religious person, the event you've described would be interpreted as a mental breakdown and cause them to seek medical treatment. After being duly medicated, this person would also likely continue stronger than ever in their convictions, having personally "overcome" a hallucinatory episode.

The same objective event occurred, but the context of one's psychology makes all the difference in its perception. This works with practically everything. No data, no event, no observation exists in a vacuum.

In the case of science/academics, people with agendas and biases are involved every step of the way, from designing the inputs to summarizing and drawing conclusions from the results. And there have been, and surely will be in the future, many significant incidents where the accepted consensus is proven disastrously wrong. Before that happens, the small handful of contrarians attempting to warn about or discuss them are typically considered fringe alarmists, bitter saboteurs, or establishment puppets.

This creates logical space for anyone to disregard the naysayers, set up camp in the contrary position, and gear up for an "I told you so" moment down the road.

If you know this person to be wrong, you will not win by attacking their conclusions, no matter how right you are. Rather, you will win by properly estimating their perspective, understanding why they choose to discredit the particular authority that proves out your position and credit a separate one that doesn't, and then enlightening the situation for them such that their own natural reasoning process will obtain to the "correct" conclusion.

This is called "sales" when it's done on a 1:1 basis and "marketing" when it's done en masse. It can be very difficult when there are powerful entities competing to cast the psychological context in their favor.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#60

I see this sort of thing on Hacker News all the time. Programmers that are, I'm sure, the top of their field comment in threads about biology or something out of their field with the most silly and wrong answers. A thread about nutrition or something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain. That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it.…

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