Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map • Hacker News Board

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#21

Post by brudgers » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 1:52 PM UTC

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #8

superpope99 wrote: post #2

Time and time again I keep coming back to the same conclusion - anyone who has the desire can learn to code. I would say that 95% of people have enough innate logic to write code, they just need to be taught to express it formally.

>in 2015, then watched as more than 900 applications rolled in. From this pool, they chose 11 former miners who scored highest on a coding aptitude test. Two years later, in an old Coca-Cola factory by the Big Sandy river, nine men and one woman remain They gave people an IQ test and took the top percentile of a group that, due to their interest, was already slightly selected for intellectual ability. This is not pro…

To me, the process is more suggestive of the idea that the resources likely to produce success when training people to code are scarce and access to those resources is therefore limited using highly selective processes to guard against allocating resources to false positives.

I suspect that the process selected 11 people because there were funds to educate ~11 people and that ~11 would have been enrolled in the program if the applicant population was significantly different regardless of that difference being a left or right skew.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#22

Post by slv77 » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 1:55 PM UTC

superpope99 wrote: post #2

Time and time again I keep coming back to the same conclusion - anyone who has the desire can learn to code. I would say that 95% of people have enough innate logic to write code, they just need to be taught to express it formally.

Programming is similar to chess in that it has a high branching factor. Each potential path towards a desired end state leads to other potential paths and excludes others.

Good programmers are adept at being able to visualize complex trees and with experience to be able to quickly prune (exclude) suboptimal paths.

This is a pretty limited skill set and is closely correlated with spatial reasoning. Studies have shown that that skill is somewhat malleable through training but still follows a bell curve. Better training could double the number of people who could potentially succeed in stem careers but that is still far from everybody being able to code.

And the effect of training is to largely move people from the middle of the curve slightly to one side and not moving somebody from the middle to the edge of from one edge to the other. That means while you can make some people programmers you can't make anyone excellent programmers.

On a side note my experience is that people without strong spatial reasoning skills tend to find shortcuts early on that help them cope and those coping methods can eventually become strengths in their own right. For example they become adept at memorizing procedures (medicine) or start at the end state and work backwards (project management). To someone who relies on strong spatial reasoning abilities and never developed these techniques these people's abilities can seem like they are able to manage complex trees with speed (memorizing) or extremely deep trees with ease (project management).

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#23

Post by fuball63 » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

I'm from the region, and work remotely as a coder. Some of these really backwoods areas are very beautiful and tranquil, and when combined with the affordability, I think it is a great place to code. A lot of local politicians and economic developers are grasping to coal/lumber/manufacturing, but I think there is opportunity to build small tech hubs for young people burnt out on expensive, crowded, and distracting cities. Invest in a few bars, coffee shops, low rent office spaces, and most importantly, broadband, and I don't think it would be hard to convince coders and entrepreneurs to come.

EDIT: additional thought: there are also great outdoor recreation opportunities that is one of my favorite things about living here (hiking, mountain biking, rafting)

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#24

Post by Moshe_Silnorin » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #21

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in 2015, then watched as more than 900 applications rolled in. From this pool, they chose 11 former miners who scored highest on a coding aptitude test. Two years later, in an old Coca-Cola factory by the Big Sandy river, nine men and one woman remain They gave people an IQ test and took the top percentile of a group that, due to their interest, was already slightly selected for intellectual ability. This is not pro…

To me, the process is more suggestive of the idea that the resources likely to produce success when training people to code are scarce and access to those resources is therefore limited using highly selective processes to guard against allocating resources to false positives. I suspect that the process selected 11 people because there were funds to educate ~11 people and that ~11 would have been enrolled in the progr…

The resources are not scarce; they are free online.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#25

Post by unclebucknasty » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

superpope99 wrote: post #2

Time and time again I keep coming back to the same conclusion - anyone who has the desire can learn to code. I would say that 95% of people have enough innate logic to write code, they just need to be taught to express it formally.

Why do we say this about coding? We don't say anyone can be an artist, or an astrophysicist, or a brain surgeon.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#26

Post by jbawgs » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

I live in eastern KY and there are a few programs like this one. In Hazard KY, another coal-bust town, I was accepted to a program to train force.com developers. Hold your scoffs please, we've learned a lot in the last few months, including using JS.

The broadband struggle is real. I worry that at some point we'll still need to relocate.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#27

Post by brudgers » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #19

gkilmain wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I missed the IQ test part. All I read was coding aptitude test, whatever the hell that is. Sure we're all different and maybe 95% is high but its at least 50%. One out of every two people I meet I am confident they could become proficient at programming given a solid learning environment.

A programming aptitude test is just an IQ test with another name. >One out of every two people I meet I am confident they could become proficient at programming given a solid learning environment. That's quite possible, even if what I say is true. People tend to mix with people on their own intellectual level. The people you talk to enough to get a good estimate of their intelligence are unlikely to be randomly selec…

An alternative way to prevent deskilling programming is to make the tools required to program such that learning to use them becomes mostly a matter of oral tradition rather than accessible. This might (or might not) be happening.

For example, the evolution of Javascript from a low status programming language to a high status one has paralleled a shift from a stable core language and a well documented API to the DOM to a combinatorial explosion of changing frameworks and complex development toolchains. Learning some combination gulp and babel and redux and angular(2) and webgl and ten other things is more a matter of access to people who will patiently answer questions than something a person can learn without working on a team.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #27

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A programming aptitude test is just an IQ test with another name. >One out of every two people I meet I am confident they could become proficient at programming given a solid learning environment. That's quite possible, even if what I say is true. People tend to mix with people on their own intellectual level. The people you talk to enough to get a good estimate of their intelligence are unlikely to be randomly selec…

An alternative way to prevent deskilling programming is to make the tools required to program such that learning to use them becomes mostly a matter of oral tradition rather than accessible. This might (or might not) be happening. For example, the evolution of Javascript from a low status programming language to a high status one has paralleled a shift from a stable core language and a well documented API to the DOM…

[deleted]

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#29

Post by jbawgs » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:14 PM UTC

fuball63 wrote: post #23

I'm from the region, and work remotely as a coder. Some of these really backwoods areas are very beautiful and tranquil, and when combined with the affordability, I think it is a great place to code. A lot of local politicians and economic developers are grasping to coal/lumber/manufacturing, but I think there is opportunity to build small tech hubs for young people burnt out on expensive, crowded, and distracting ci…

There isn't anywhere else I'd rather be. Before I joined a program in Hazard like the one mentioned in the article, I was in construction for 15 years, and I've been a lot of places. Appalachia is the best place though. We could also stand to have an influx of bright young people with a broader view.

Re: Former miners out to put Kentucky on the tech map

#30

Post by brianwawok » Sat, Apr 22, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #7

superpope99 wrote: post #2

Time and time again I keep coming back to the same conclusion - anyone who has the desire can learn to code. I would say that 95% of people have enough innate logic to write code, they just need to be taught to express it formally.

Sure. 95% of people can lay bricks too. But 95% of people can't lay bricks precisely enough or at the speed a bricklaying company is going to hire them. And for sure 95% of people aren't interested in laying bricks. Is it worth teaching 95% of people to code? I don't think it is. Most people don't have to lay bricks to live in house.

Or 95% of people can make more money at jobs other than laying bricks.

95 % of people can't make more money than coding. Some can and do. Many would if they could.