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Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

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Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#21

Post by rascul »

kasabali wrote: post #18
_delirium wrote: post #8

Isn't systemd still optional in Debian? I know there is worry that since it's the default, packages won't necessarily be well-tested without it, but afaik you can still remove it, just by installing sysvinit: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

it is "optional". unless you run a headless server or a barebones desktop system with very carefully selected packages it is impossible to not install systemd because logind & pam dependencies are littered everywhere. Using sysvinit as pid 1 is achieved by installing systemd-shim, which still depends on systemd and uses systemd files and systemd is still run anyway, just not as pid1. so yeah, there is practically no…

I've been running Jessie without systemd on my laptop for a couple years now. Never had to worry about packages not working, except for vbox not building it's driver. But that's probably some issue with backports, and I don't care enough about vbox to actually look into it. Systemd is installed though and apparently used for udev and logind.

Edits: I should review before posting.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#22

Post by na85 »

rascul wrote: post #21
kasabali wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is "optional". unless you run a headless server or a barebones desktop system with very carefully selected packages it is impossible to not install systemd because logind & pam dependencies are littered everywhere. Using sysvinit as pid 1 is achieved by installing systemd-shim, which still depends on systemd and uses systemd files and systemd is still run anyway, just not as pid1. so yeah, there is practically no…

I've been running Jessie without systemd on my laptop for a couple years now. Never had to worry about packages not working, except for vbox not building it's driver. But that's probably some issue with backports, and I don't care enough about vbox to actually look into it. Systemd is installed though and apparently used for udev and logind. Edits: I should review before posting.

Sounds like your laptop isn't "without systemd" in that case.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#23

Post by Avernar »

_delirium wrote: post #8

Isn't systemd still optional in Debian? I know there is worry that since it's the default, packages won't necessarily be well-tested without it, but afaik you can still remove it, just by installing sysvinit: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

Theoretically, yes. In reality, not so much.

I blocked the install of systemd way back. Recently I tried to upgrade postgres+postgis. Turned out that postgis had a dependency on a package with had a dependency on a package which had a dependency on another package which had a dependency on systemd.

So I tried compiling it myself. One of te build dependencies had a dependency on a package which had a dependency on a package which, you guessed it, had a dependency on systemd.

I finally gave up and moved the database over to a jail on my freebsd box.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#25

Post by JdeBP »

feld wrote: post #14
eropple wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction to the initial announcement of a fork, and it's taken three years to get to an RC. (The whole systemd tempest in the tiniest, most awkward of teacups never made a lick of sense to me--in no small part because, like 99% of people, the only time I ever interact with it is when I throw a service declaration out there, and Noah Kantrowitz's fantastic `poise-service` Chef cookbook abstracts that aw…

I spent a day fighting to get systemd to properly handle bind mounts on boot. It doesn't reliably mount them and there are tons of blog and forum posts complaining about it. It also surprised us that it doesn't obey the "bg" flag for NFS. You have to use "nofail" instead. I have been informed today that a new MySQL cluster built at work on CentOS 7.3 doesn't reliably start MySQL on boot. We have none of these problem…

MySQL is a topic of discussion on the systemd-devel mailing list right now, coincidentally.

* https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-Ap...

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#26

Post by JdeBP »

jwn wrote: post #3

Anyone care to explain why SystemD is so contentious to the point it's worth forking Debian?

Where have you been for the past 5 years? (-:

(By the way, the mis-spelling "SystemD" has become a shibboleth over those years. Spell the name properly, lest you find yourself lumped in with the pot-stirrers and provocateurs by the rest of the world.)

There was a whole hoo-hah in Debian over what to replace System 5 rc with: upstart, OpenRC, systemd, or something else. It got raised to the Technical Committee, sparked several resignations, went to a vote of the entire Debian Developer membership, and lasted for a long time.

* http://jdebp.eu./FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html

Contrast Debian with Arch:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11834348

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#27

Post by mdekkers »

feld wrote: post #14
eropple wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction to the initial announcement of a fork, and it's taken three years to get to an RC. (The whole systemd tempest in the tiniest, most awkward of teacups never made a lick of sense to me--in no small part because, like 99% of people, the only time I ever interact with it is when I throw a service declaration out there, and Noah Kantrowitz's fantastic `poise-service` Chef cookbook abstracts that aw…

I spent a day fighting to get systemd to properly handle bind mounts on boot. It doesn't reliably mount them and there are tons of blog and forum posts complaining about it. It also surprised us that it doesn't obey the "bg" flag for NFS. You have to use "nofail" instead. I have been informed today that a new MySQL cluster built at work on CentOS 7.3 doesn't reliably start MySQL on boot. We have none of these problem…

it's a nightmare for sysadmins

Many times this.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#28

Post by Sphax »

kasabali wrote: post #19
Sphax wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I hope this doesn't gain traction because last thing I want as someone just writing services is dealing with sysvinit

You hope this doesn't gain traction because you're selfish? Devuan people aren't forcing you to write anything other than unit files. Support whatever you want and let other people freely developing their own distributions. because free software.

They can do whatever they want, I just hope nobody follows their path because as a user sysvinit is objectively worse than systemd.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#29

Post by JdeBP »

Sphax wrote: post #28
kasabali wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hope this doesn't gain traction because you're selfish? Devuan people aren't forcing you to write anything other than unit files. Support whatever you want and let other people freely developing their own distributions. because free software.

They can do whatever they want, I just hope nobody follows their path because as a user sysvinit is objectively worse than systemd.

The nonsense in your thinking is your belief that the two choices are System 5 rc and systemd, and that therefore "their path" must be the former. You need not have even read the headlined page too far to have found https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ which gives the lie to that. The Devuan people are quite wrong about Debian and OpenRC, but the point here is that they don't force upon you that binary choice any more than anyone else does and what they themselves outright tell you about their path contradicts your thinking.

The whole it-is-a-binary-choice-between-systemd-and-system-5-rc idea is bunkum, a myth. It wasn't true on Debian, where the hoo-hah had votes amongst upstart, OpenRC, systemd, and System 5 rc. It wasn't true on Ubuntu and Fedora, which had both been using upstart for years before their respective switches to systemd. It isn't true on Devuan, per what is right in front of you stated by the Devuan people theirselves. It is discussed amongst several other myths at http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ . You are propounding it.

Re: Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

#30

Post by mindcrash »

_delirium wrote: post #8

Isn't systemd still optional in Debian? I know there is worry that since it's the default, packages won't necessarily be well-tested without it, but afaik you can still remove it, just by installing sysvinit: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

Background information on how Devuan came to existence can be found here: https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/
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