Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#201

Post by ng12 » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 7:31 PM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #172

huangc10 wrote: post #47

I just want to give my POV on all of this as I have lived in both Vancouver, Toronto, and now in Mountain View. Everything pointed out in the comments about low pay, and high cost of living in Vancouver is true. However, let's look of it from another angle. If you were a young college grad with options, wouldn't you want to go to sunny California? Not only is it an adventure, there's better night life, better sports…

I've also been to Mountain View. As a young college grad I would like to live in a CITY, not a sprawling suburban nightmare where half of my day would be stuck in traffic. The higher pay is the ONLY reason to move to Silicon Valley. It has nothing on Vancouver or Toronto in terms of night life, food, or fun for a college-educated professional.

So why not NYC? More of a city and better wages for devs than either Vancouver or Toronto.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#202

Post by apercu » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

hughes wrote: post #27

This article doesn't mention one of the major reasons for talent leaving Canada: if you work there, you need to stomach a 50% pay cut in average salaries vs the US. This is true pretty much across the board regardless of tech niche on the 2017 Stack Overflow Developer Survey[1]: Machine learning specialist: US 108k, Canada 53k (49%) Embedded applications/devices developer: US 100k, Canada 53k (53%) Systems administra…

I was an executive at a SW firm in Toronto for almost 9 years (I'm originally from the US).

In order to hire relatively talented people, the salaries were (even in 2007) no where near what you are describing.

When I resigned in 2014 the lowest paid developer on a 30 person team might have been making around $80k. Typically salaries were between $88 and $110.

While there are a large number of Canadians that have gone to the US to work, I regularly encounter Americans in tech that have come here. Sure, it's anecdotal.

My taxes are only slightly more than I paid in Wisconsin, and likely on par with California. And for that I always have some level of basic healthcare, even if I lose my job. Plus, the government tries harder for its citizens here.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#203

Post by apercu » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

akinalci wrote: post #53

endorphone wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do have a grievance with a much lower pay ceiling across Canada, those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system…

Here's another source, Payscale.com: Software engineer (Canada): $51,000 (C$70,000) Software engineer (US): $80,825 The gap here is smaller ($30k vs. $50k) but still significant. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm more inclined to believe two surveys than a random person's claim. [1] http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [2] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engin…

Canada is a large country. $51k in Winnipeg might be a really nice salary. In the greater Toronto area that would be low.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#204

Post by apercu » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:07 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #68

endorphone wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do have a grievance with a much lower pay ceiling across Canada, those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system…

those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey. Then put stock in a the words of a guy who has actually looked for employment in Canada, and after the election of Trump is very incentivized to take a positive view on moving to Canada: as far as I can tell from the salaries posted, I'd take about a 50% pay cut, and I wouldn't be able to…

I moved to Canada in 2005 or so. It set me back a little financially to wait for my visa and build up a credit profile here but 12 years later I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Would might net worth be slightly higher if I had stayed in the US? Yes, because I spent around $30k to get established (that was also a personal choice, I needed a break after a rough startup go between '98-2005.

I, too, like BC, but SW Ontario has more jobs.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#205

Post by apercu » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:09 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #155

tostitos1979 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If salaries and housing prices in Canada were at all reasonable, I know many fellow Canadians would move back from the Bay area in an instant. Toronto is the other major tech center which is stupidly priced (hopefully the new govt measures slow things down). If you can speak french, consider Montreal.

How about the Tri-Cities[1]? I have several friends who live there, seems like there are lots of tech jobs around. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Cities_(Ontario)

I live about 50 minutes from Cambridge/Waterloo/Kitchener. I'd totally move that way but my wife wants to stay close to her mom. If we made that move I'd be mortgage free after selling the Mississauga house for $200k more than the Guelph/Cambridge house would cost.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#206

Post by g2guo » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:11 PM UTC

nandemo wrote: post #148

g2guo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently moved from Waterloo to San Francisco. My salary had doubled in the process, but my living costs have also substantially increased. I live in a 1-bedroom condo with similar square feet; my diet stayed the same, I pursue the same hobbies and similar habits (fitness, education, entertainment). In the end, the higher cost of living offsets my salary increase, and my quality of life stayed the same.

The idea that "the increase in cost of living wipes out the salary increase" always comes up in these threads, and I think it's way off the mark. For example, I used to live in Fukuoka, a mid-sized Japanese city, and now live in Tokyo. A nice 2BDR in Fukuoka downtown would cost (say) U$600 per month. My salary in Tokyo is about double of what I could earn in Fukuoka, but an equivalent place in Tokyo would cost me way…

Rent tripled once I moved to SF, and there are quite a few other things than just food and rent. For example, Crossfit Classes and Yoga classes cost 3x as much ($10 vs. $30). Going to the bars here are at least 2x as much ($5 vs. $10+). So really it comes down to lifestyle, admittedly I tend to live an expensive lifestyle.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#207

Post by acchow » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

api_or_ipa wrote: post #196

cgh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer & credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable. This is false. I say this as someone with a TN visa, which I use to visit my employer a few times a year. The TN application process is onerous and takes weeks to confirm. The actual visa is indeed granted at the port of entry but can be denie…

> onerous and takes weeks to confirm When I moved from Canada to the Bay Area, I accepted my job offer on a Friday evening, organized to get original transcripts from my university on Tuesday morning, FedEx'd them overnight to the law firm and they arrived on Wednesday. I received my TN-1 package (a thick, completely opaque set of forms, documents, letters and all sorts of other legal shenanigans) on Friday evening.…

I'm guessing you work at one of the big 4.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#208

Post by marssaxman » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 8:45 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #200

marssaxman wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage. That's not been my experience. Microsoft used to offer a 100% plan, but that was unusual, and they dropped it a few years back. (Don't remember exactly when; I'd already left.) Google did not have a 100% plan, and no startup I've worked for has done better - in fact the startup I'm working f…

Huh? I've never had a to pay a dollar in healthcare premiums at any employer. Granted, I've never worked for a tiny, tiny startup but even among white collar employers tech companies generally have top-notch health insurance.

I'm not talking about monthly premiums, I'm talking about what it costs when you actually need health care. How much is the deductible, what is the coinsurance rate, how steep are the co-pays, how weirdly restricted are the options for doctors, etc.? "Zero cost full coverage" sounds like the old Microsoft plan, where everything was paid for all the time. That defines "top notch" for me, and most health insurance plans I've experienced are nowhere close to being that good.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#209

Post by wmil » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 9:03 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #186

acchow wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cities that are commonly touted as the "next silicon valley": - Berlin - Toronto-Waterloo - London - Vancouver - Shenzhen - Chicago

How could you forget Ottawa? It was Silicon Valley North for years before Waterloo or Toronto even were on the map.

Because it never recovered from the 2001 crash. Nortel is gone. Corel moved it's HQ overseas. The Adobe offices in Ottawa were having major layoffs in 2012.

Shopify came out of Ottawa, but it's the only one. A Rails dev in Ottawa is usually either working for Shopify or is unemployed.

Re: Canada is North America’s up-and-coming startup center

#210

Post by ng12 » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #208

ng12 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I've never had a to pay a dollar in healthcare premiums at any employer. Granted, I've never worked for a tiny, tiny startup but even among white collar employers tech companies generally have top-notch health insurance.

I'm not talking about monthly premiums, I'm talking about what it costs when you actually need health care. How much is the deductible, what is the coinsurance rate, how steep are the co-pays, how weirdly restricted are the options for doctors, etc.? "Zero cost full coverage" sounds like the old Microsoft plan, where everything was paid for all the time. That defines "top notch" for me, and most health insurance plan…

I think you're exaggerating the actual cost. I really don't think Google has a deductible plan, and I'd be surprised if the copays are more than $10 or $20. And remember, we're comparing this to Canada where you still have to pay for prescriptions (or at least a co-pay depending on your situation). Very, very few countries in the world actually cover 100% of healthcare costs.

All in all I don't really think it's a useful point of comparison when considering compensation between the two countries.