Live data from Hacker News

Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

hasbrouck.org

311–320 of 379 posts

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not change anything I wrote. > Because when there are no options left, you only have force. It actually makes it worse that you try to justify it. You used your brainpower to find a justification for what is. But there is none. This is a non sequitur - there is no reason to use force even when people don't cooperate! Also, the vast majority of such instances require no special level of competence to deescal…

"there is no reason to use force even when people don't cooperate" This is utter nonsense.

Which he didn't write - you did. You even put it in quotes, nice try. The discussion brings out the worst in some people here.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"there is no reason to use force even when people don't cooperate" This is utter nonsense.

Which he didn't write - you did. You even put it in quotes, nice try. The discussion brings out the worst in some people here.

Are you blind? That is completely false and the evidence is right above for everybody to see...

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#313

Does anyone else worry from a safety perspective that the pilots flying these "subcontracted" flights are probably paid very low? I read somewhere that even Captain pay at some of these guys can be 60-70K. I know FAA license requirements are stringent but I would have a hard time believing that working for shitty, bankrupt or nearly bankrupt low-cost airlines that don't pay well has to affect your performance to some…

Unless 60-70k is some sort of regulated minimum salary, that's exactly what the market will bear, isn't it? Seems appropriate.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Debt: The First 5,000 Years." I cannot endorse this book enough. It is the most influential non-fiction book I've ever read. Basically it's called using money as a means to make money, and this was frowned upon in many civilisations. Even today, in much of the Muslim world they do not charge interest. They do have higher bank fees (no free accounts, no free checking or electronic transfers). Keep in mind if we…

>Basically it's called using money as a means to make money, and this was frowned upon in many civilisations. I was watching the history of York castle on Netflix. In England the Christian people wouldn't charge interest on loans but the small Jewish community did, I assume it meant a person could borrow more? Anyway there was a huge riot by the Christian townsfolk they wanted to kill the Jewish men, women and childr…

> I assume it meant a person could borrow more?

It meant the lender was more willing to lend. The lender could make a business of lending if he charged interest, and not if he did not.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#315
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm trying to parse it, but as best I can tell, III...'s claim is just "Americans suck at this" combined with implausible claims and explicit rejections of any plausible ones. Somehow, the mere act of evicting someone is evidence of needing to de-escalate more, as if that could somehow avoid needing to ever remove someone. Or even if you did, you could somehow do it both without training and without attacking,…

From your previous comment, above, that I didn't respond to: > that substantiates your earlier claim that "no one is ever forcibly removed by police and if they needed to be, it wouldn't require training". Fortunately anyone can easily see what I wrote. Your style disgusts me.

Everyone can see the text. No one can see a plausible diagnosis of what went wrong relative to Germany, since you ruled out the possibility of removing anyone or removal needing training to be done safely.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there's no fundamental difference between denying boarding and removing someone who has already boarded. If done involuntarily, both are effectively theft. When denying boarding or removing a passenger who has done nothing wrong, the airline should be required to secure their consent. Then the question of "drag people off planes" would never even come up. That, and the subsequent court case, can be reser…

> If done involuntarily, both are effectively theft. You sign a contract when you buy a ticket. You willingly agree to the terms. Can you make a contract that someone can steal from you? No. > When denying boarding or removing a passenger who has done nothing wrong, the airline should be required to secure their consent. Then the question of "drag people off planes" would never even come up. That, and the subsequent…

> You sign a contract when you buy a ticket. You willingly agree to the terms.

Perhaps you do, but the rest of us simply sigh and pretend we agree because in fact there is no alternative besides walking to our destination.

The principles of contracts assume that both parties are of similar power and that both have alternatives; in the case of air travel neither of these are true.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#317
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then I think he was right to resist being removed from the flight. See I don't agree with this. Its an argument for vigilantism. The courts are the appropriate place for this to be disputed. Private property and law enforcement should be respected, especially on airplanes. This is how we uphold a civil society. If a security guard is going to kick me out of somewhere because they think I am someone else, I am not g…

First, I don't think it's reasonable to simply say that in any situation the sensible and civilized thing to do is to walk away and "let the courts handle it". It seems extremely naive to say that we should never directly challenge the request of anyone in a position of authority because we can then address it in the courts later in a fair and civilized manner. I'm not saying that this is the right case or even that…

> we should never directly challenge the request of anyone in a position of authority because we can then address it in the courts later in a fair and civilised manner...as a blanket statement that it's always better to obey, no matter what the request seems absurd.

You are arguing for the use of violent resistance to authority. If you disobey an authority what do you expect to happen? We have the right to peaceful protest, a democratic government, and a justice system. The only alternative I see is a violent confrontation with police which is not the society I want.

> To my mind the actors who created a physical altercation were the police officers and not the passenger.

You cannot disobey the police. The physical altercation was most definitely created by the passenger refusing police orders. I like US police because they get the job done. If this was Europe it would most certainly have been a different story. Plane would have been endlessly delayed, etc.

> To me their options are clear, persuade one passenger on the plane to get out, or lose whatever amount of money they were going to lose by not having that crew on their plane.

If you leave one passenger on the plane, you give reason for every other passenger to refuse. Then what do you do?

I would have given the same order to remove him from the plane with force, and I would expect this to be carried out like so. If there is some sort of mistake, it can be cleared up afterwards without inconveniencing everyone on the flight.

To argue against this is to argue that no one should ever be forcibly removed from anyone else's private property. The argument clearly does not hold across different scenarios. Follow the police's orders and leave someone else's private property when ordered to is a consistent message that makes it easy for everyone to avoid violence. Allowing everyone to live by their own interpretation of the law ends in more violence and regret.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because European airlines are a lot nicer in that regard. "200 EUR" (or whatever amount). In the US you hear "offered $800 compensation". It's not cash. It's a voucher for use only on that airline, only within 12 months, and only on select full-fare ticket classes. So an $800 ticket may only get you another round flight from Chicago to Louisville (around 500km/300mi).

$800 for Chicago to Louisville is a bad example. I can get a round-trip flight tonight between the two for $200... $800 round trip is like Boston to Hawai'i next week.($822 from next monday to the 1st of May). That's 8,081km/5,021 miles. It honestly wouldn't be that bad.

No you can't - at least not with a voucher.

I found the flight you're looking at:

" Chicago to Louisville O'Hare Intl. (ORD) to Louisville Intl. (SDF) American Airlines 3520 operated by Envoy Air As American Eagle Economy / Coach (V) Canadian Regional Jet 700 "

V class is "Discount Coach". (http://www.cwsi.net/united.htm)

Only full-fare refundable ticket classes are eligible for voucher use. In essence, "Y" class: "1st Tier Economy. Full Fare unrestricted coach class".

In fact you couldn't fly ORD to SDF at all on a voucher because every seat on the "dba Express" carrier flights are "Discount Coach" or "Deep Discount Coach".

If anything, this proves my point. Because an $800 voucher sounds great, until you realize this.

Your other example?

https://www.expedia.com/Flights-Search?trip=roundtrip&leg1=f...

No, you're looking at $2,600+ for BOS-KOA return that's eligible for voucher use (not sure if you can use a voucher as part payment).

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think Dr Dao was aware of his rights or asserting them. Yes, in court he can make this argument. But is it really acceptable for a grown adult to be dragged off a plane? I don't want to live in a society like this, and I don't think the correct solution is to "never drag people off planes". We have a court system to resolve disputes and I think it is far better that whatever injustice people feel, it is reso…

The correct solution can be to never drag people off planes. The cockpit crew simply stops their checklist at "passenger manifest is correct", and informs the passenger cabin that takeoff will be delayed indefinitely until after the "stowaways" deplane and return to the gate. Planes aren't trains, either. They can fly on any heading, with speed and distance dependent only on fuel supply. "We're very sorry, but due to…

Nice story. But I don't want to be on that plane or live in that society, and I am happy that the US police still have the guts to enforce the law and follow orders.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense but did you read the article and the referenced texts it's citing?

Yep. And I am arguing that there is a lot of analysis over something that should not have been a media firestorm, but a simple dispute with an airline that probably happens 1000s of times per day. Take away the kicking and screaming and you have a standard airline dispute of which you can find thousands.

> there is a lot of analysis

Yes, finally. Airlines should not be allowed to overbook. Period. I'm pretty sure most of the people would be more than happy to pay a little bit extra to have guaranteed seat.

Post reply on HN