Please rename to Moby Dock instead.
A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
81–90 of 321 posts
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
The pre-emptive defensiveness of that comment says a lot...
Maybe. The defensiveness could likely be that in many rebrands things tend to get lost in the scuffle (e.g. documentation not fully up to date; difficult to find references to some subproject's new name; checkbox for feature still listed on the enterprise version's landing page; assumption that it was made closed-source). The devs just want to get ahead of that as much as possible.
There is absolutely no need for this rebrand, because they're not actually getting rid of the old brand, they're trying to reuse it for something different, which is insane. Hence the defensiveness. They know this will cause problems and complaints. They can't get ahead of the complaints without actually fixing them, by reversing the decision.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Moby is the fedora like oss project and docker is the RHEL like commercial product. Purely a clever rebranding job. Timing is perfect - now that enterprise is adopting the technology, when you tell your boss you adopted moby he/she will say- but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby!
> but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby! I see this kind of cynicism / snark all the time on HN (especially when it comes to Docker) but is it really warranted? Surely it's the rare exception? I've never met senior people who couldn't understand the naming difference between the open source version of a thing and the enterprise-branded version…
I don't think your wrong. Someone being that entitled and ignorant must be the rare exception in 2017. Maybe I'm in a bubble too.
The conversation usually goes like this with my folk:
I get it, Moby is the OSS version and can be easily stood up and you don't see the need for extra cost. I'm glad you're trying to reduce expenses, but I don't mind paying for 24x7 Enterprise Support and it gives me piece of mind and priority escalation support.
Basically, I don't mind paying extra for a get out of jail free card if a whole swarm is offline.... I can tell the CEO we have the vendor partner engaged with a critical ticket and she can have piece of mind too. So, let's quote out the Enterprise version of Docker and evaluate the TCO of both solutions.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
Moby is the fedora like oss project and docker is the RHEL like commercial product. Purely a clever rebranding job. Timing is perfect - now that enterprise is adopting the technology, when you tell your boss you adopted moby he/she will say- but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby!
> but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby! I see this kind of cynicism / snark all the time on HN (especially when it comes to Docker) but is it really warranted? Surely it's the rare exception? I've never met senior people who couldn't understand the naming difference between the open source version of a thing and the enterprise-branded version…
I've certainly seen CIOs in non tech companies, who know what RedHat is, but don't know what Fedora is. It's not all of them, but it does exist.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The goal is to confuse the people who haven't been following this into thinking Docker is a thing you pay Docker (the company) for Following the first thing they google without actually understanding what's involved, all the way to handing over money sounds about what I expect from someone who thinks Docker is a viable platform to use for anything worth handing over money for.
That's not quite how it works. - Decision maker googles and finds there's this Docker company that will solve their problems. Heard good buzz about Docker in the news, how open it is, and how many companies use it. - Decision maker to engineer: "Hey can we use Docker software to solve problem X" - Engineer: "Sure, the software is actually called Moby now though" - Decision maker: "Meh, I don't care what it's called,…
Is that how VC companies "work" ? "Decision makers" make unilateral decisions about technology and "engineers" just say "yeah I guess" when asked about using new tech?
What fucking problem does Docker solve that a "decision maker" can understand it enough to get a result telling them to use Docker, yet s/he can't understand the concept of "open core" software.
Docker's status seems entirely driven by me-too cool kids cargo-culting the bejeezus out of it because they heard it can run their nodejs react app better.
If you work for a company where your described situation could happen, fucking leave.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#86Why am I having the feeling that Docker Inc is being pissed about everyone making money off docker except Docker Inc. themselves ? This is not nice.
Oh, because it's true. Their employees were fairly outspoken about it at Dockercon. I had one just dramatically and rudely turn and walk away from me mid-sentence when I mentioned I was using Kubernetes.
That's just silly. Kubernetes is an open source project too, and I don't think Google is making a ton of money from it.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Moby is the fedora like oss project and docker is the RHEL like commercial product. Purely a clever rebranding job. Timing is perfect - now that enterprise is adopting the technology, when you tell your boss you adopted moby he/she will say- but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby!
> but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby! I see this kind of cynicism / snark all the time on HN (especially when it comes to Docker) but is it really warranted? Surely it's the rare exception? I've never met senior people who couldn't understand the naming difference between the open source version of a thing and the enterprise-branded version…
This idea isn't cynical, it's branding. The whole point of creating a brand like Moby is to trigger conversations about what level of service you're getting when you say you're using "Moby" vs. "Docker". The CTO hears they're using "Moby", which for the first time may make the CTO realize that some of the infrastructure for his business is relying on unsupported technology (or maybe he intuitively realized it but now it's obvious).
It's not a "cheap shot", and it's not for "upvotes", it's just an observation about the nature of this change being non-technical, related to messaging.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but the CTO wants to be seen as being innovative for adopting this new technology and ita called docker not moby! I see this kind of cynicism / snark all the time on HN (especially when it comes to Docker) but is it really warranted? Surely it's the rare exception? I've never met senior people who couldn't understand the naming difference between the open source version of a thing and the enterprise-branded version…
I don't think your wrong. Someone being that entitled and ignorant must be the rare exception in 2017. Maybe I'm in a bubble too. The conversation usually goes like this with my folk: I get it, Moby is the OSS version and can be easily stood up and you don't see the need for extra cost. I'm glad you're trying to reduce expenses, but I don't mind paying for 24x7 Enterprise Support and it gives me piece of mind and pri…
It's also vital in non tech Fortune-size orgs to be able to lean on the vendor. Not having support is a deal breaker.
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The goal is to confuse the people who haven't been following this into thinking Docker is a thing you pay Docker (the company) for Following the first thing they google without actually understanding what's involved, all the way to handing over money sounds about what I expect from someone who thinks Docker is a viable platform to use for anything worth handing over money for.
That's not quite how it works. - Decision maker googles and finds there's this Docker company that will solve their problems. Heard good buzz about Docker in the news, how open it is, and how many companies use it. - Decision maker to engineer: "Hey can we use Docker software to solve problem X" - Engineer: "Sure, the software is actually called Moby now though" - Decision maker: "Meh, I don't care what it's called,…
Would you really want to work at that company anyway? Here's how it goes where I work:
- Boss: here's the business-level problem I want solved
- Engineers: here's what we think it'll take to do it, and the technical path forward
- Boss: either (1) cool, what can I can do to help you get started? or (2) yikes, that's a bigger problem than I thought. What's the 80% solution?
Re: A new upstream project to break up Docker into independent components
#90This is the one of the worst kind of business decision one can make. But I am not theirCTO and CEO. While not the same as Vagrant being replaced (and then revived because the alternate project was a burden), feels the same shitty decision IMO. Plently of people run successful OSS under the same name. Disappointing.
> Plently of people run successful OSS under the same name. Disappointing.
But those projects aren't true OSS in the way that something like Docker / Moby needs to be. Your Vagrant example is one of them; Vagrant is a useful tool but ultimately too narrowly-focused. Docker's biggest coup was seamlessly integrating orchestration tools with deployment tools -- and now they're separating the two (which is completely fine, because they need to be separate tools anyway to support complex use cases).
Docker has built a lot of valuable IP that they want to protect (branding, UI, API, etc.) That makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense that they want to open source a big chunk of the "glue" between everything because 1) it's generally useful to lots of people / projects and 2) it gets other companies to kick in dollars for maintenance.
You're not going to get non-customers to fund the maintenance of an open source project that is wholly run and owned by Docker. They know that, and hence they're creating a governance board. But once you do that, you lose full control of your brand (which is attached to the project), and thus you have to divorce the two.
Docker is still going to drive the development of Moby. But over time, other companies will enter the fold to build other complex system orchestration projects on top of Moby.