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Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

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Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#151

Post by maxerickson »

cjrp wrote: post #145
wfunction wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is crazy! Any sources for this?

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights. But hey, supply and dema…

Their actual typical monthly hours would be more informative than their contractual guarantee.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#152

Post by DennisP »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #139
djsumdog wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Debt: The First 5,000 Years." I cannot endorse this book enough. It is the most influential non-fiction book I've ever read. Basically it's called using money as a means to make money, and this was frowned upon in many civilisations. Even today, in much of the Muslim world they do not charge interest. They do have higher bank fees (no free accounts, no free checking or electronic transfers). Keep in mind if we…

> Board executives at JPMorgan Chase, PNC and the other banks that caused so much destruction in 2008 should have been thrown in jail next to rapists, paedophiles and murders. What strange ideas of justice the world has! In an ostensibly advanced country, America, one side of the political spectrum would be have us remain willfully oblivious to police abuses, corrupt prosecutors withholding or fabricating evidence, a…

The bankers did more than make shaky loans. In some cases they committed actual fraud, amounting to billions of dollars, which had effects like wiping out people's retirement accounts.

I think you're right that they deserve less punishment than murderers. But what they got is less punishment than some people get for standing on the wrong street corner.

For details, on both the bankers and the people on street corners, see The Divide by Matt Taibbi.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#153

Post by cmdrfred »

patrickk wrote: post #135
maze-le wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not an economist, but I think it is a problem with information assymetry. The cleaning worker does not have many connections to CEOs, to wich he can sell his services, but the middle men have. The middle men can leverage this situation to gain the profit, the cleaning worker would have gained. But I have no idea, why this would evolve into a pyramid scheme. One level of "management" would have solved the "inform…

> The cleaning worker does not have many connections to CEOs, to wich he can sell his services, but the middle men have. Bingo. Additionally, in many cases the person/team carrying out a procurement process may require (often by law or company policy) a ridiculous set of documents that some sleazy company is an expert in navigating, and exploiting any loopholes or poorly-written selection criteria. They deliver crap…

Also the problem is in many businesses the person choosing the cleaning company isn't spending their own money. So if company A is more expensive but Company B will take more effort to onboard due to the fact they aren't familiar with the paperwork. The employee (often on salary for unlimited hours) will pick the easier option.

Another reason to support small businesses, it helps keep markets honest.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#154

Post by cjrp »

maxerickson wrote: post #151
cjrp wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights. But hey, supply and dema…

Their actual typical monthly hours would be more informative than their contractual guarantee.

Looks like the actual total at Mesa (including per diems, etc.) was $20,183 last year[1].

[1] https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#155

Post by flukus »

patrickk wrote: post #132
flukus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cleaning worker does not have many connections to CEOs, to wich he can sell his services I think you might of hit on a possible explanation there, maybe it's wealth inequality? When there was more equality that CEO (or company owner, or just someone near the top) might have been going to the same bars or been part of the same local sports clubs as the cleaner, their kids might have gone to the same school. Now…

> might have been going to the same bars or been part of the same local sports clubs as the cleaner, their kids might have gone to the same school. Now they probably live in other parts of the city. I don't think this ever the case, in any era. Rich people in many countries definitely send their kids to posh schools through their connections (e.g. slots available for those with a parent who attended), go to different…

I'm not thinking CEO of MEGCORP here, but a typical business owner or office manager of a 5-50 person office, they aren't so detached. I'm not sure which end of the wealth divide the fall on though.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#156

Post by return0 »

dsacco wrote: post #5

This was a fascinating read. The money quote, in summary form: * The flight was technically a Republic Airlines flight subcontracting for United Airlines. * Almost none of the staff involved worked directly for United Airlines; they are subcontractors required to wear United Airlines' branded uniforms. * Republic Airlines is bankrupt, and none of the parties involved in the lawsuit has attempted to shift blame to the…

So in today's capitalism, you can shift and dilute the blame so much, that you can literally beat up your customers.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#157

Post by scrollaway »

makomk wrote: post #133
narag wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a free market if there is information assymetry, it's there in the first paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market It says that there is a less assuming version, but I'd always heard the information thing.

Since there is inevitably going to be information asymmetry, this is rather a "no true scotsman" approach to redirecting blame away for the problems that plague free markets in the real world.

"I support our free market! But since our free market isn't really a free market, I'm still right and it's not my fault if things go wrong!"

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#158

Post by maxerickson »

cjrp wrote: post #154
maxerickson wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their actual typical monthly hours would be more informative than their contractual guarantee.

Looks like the actual total at Mesa (including per diems, etc.) was $20,183 last year[1]. [1] https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...

It says on that chart that they did the same thing as your above comment, multiplying the guaranteed hours by the minimum hourly wage.

It could well be that they all work the minimum hours. I doubt it, this would be more expensive for the airline.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#159

Post by bb611 »

metafunctor wrote: post #114
tuna-piano wrote: post #24

I see this whole event kind of like the Rosa Parks situation. I'm not comparing the magnitude of injustice, just that (a)There was an unjust system and (b)It took an individual to stick up for the just result, even though it was breaking the rules. Also, the author is wrong in this passage: From the article: "The gate agents offered offered $800 in airline scrip to anyone willing to deplane, which from past observati…

From what I've understood, the problem is the United policy to never go above $800. Not ever, even if it means calling the cops. To me, such a policy appears to be in direct violation of the DoT rules.

Until United staff say "Your ticket is revoked", you are still a volunteer. You are in the negotiation phase for volunteering until they actually come tell you that your ticket has specifically been revoked for the flight, at which point the DoT minimum compensation rules take over.

This particular policy does appear to be in line with DoT's requirements - you can get volunteers for any price you're willing to negotiate. Even if United has set a maximum price of $800 in some evil combination of travel vouchers that you'll never use, that is expressly legal. The required compensation only kicks in if you refuse that offer AND they still revoke your ticket for the flight.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#160

Post by cjrp »

maxerickson wrote: post #158
cjrp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like the actual total at Mesa (including per diems, etc.) was $20,183 last year[1]. [1] https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...

It says on that chart that they did the same thing as your above comment, multiplying the guaranteed hours by the minimum hourly wage. It could well be that they all work the minimum hours. I doubt it, this would be more expensive for the airline.

Well they're limited by the FAA to 1000 hours / year, so they'd have to be averaging 83 hours/month at most.
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