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Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

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Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#141

Post by jfroma »

djsumdog wrote: post #108
dragonwriter wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indemnification wouldn't eliminate United's liability, it would just entitle United to sue Republic for reimbursement for whatever it had to pay. Which, given Republic's bankruptcy, puts United in the same problematic spot a victim would be in if they had to sue only Republic and United wasn't liable under repsondeat superior .

I also read this author's post about bankrupt airlines. I've always been aware of the subcontracted airlines (often I'd see two flight numbers rotating on the same screen or somewhere it would say X operated by Y) but I never stopped to think if I should check if one of those is actually bankrupt. I don't fly within the US just because fuck the TSA (I'll take a train to Canada if I need to fly internationally), but I…

I don't think "X operated by Y" means subcontracted or that it implies that X is in bankruptcy. Companies do this all the time, one example is when you buy a multi-leg flight. They partner other airlines because they dont have a license to do one of the legs.

I might be completely wrong but thats what I always though, please correct me.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#142

Post by madaxe_again »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #131
madaxe_again wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is marketing bullshit - I spent a decade running an ecommerce agency and got to see the bellies of many beasts. For instance, there's a pig related tea brand in the UK which is universally seen as funky and independent and all that shite. They're owned by tetley, who are in turn owned by tata. The ownership structure is sufficiently complex to make them look independent - but they aren't. It's just good ma…

Oh, TeaPigs? With the dachshund mascot on the Darjeeling Earl Grey, and the brown-paper boxes, and the overpriced wares? Yeah, you can get those everywhere; they're clearly _way_ too mass-market to be properly independent. If you're spending cash money the on indie feel of things, you'll be buying BigCorp sooner or later. Better to just buy quality. > Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing prob…

Yeah, them - they're essentially an independent business unit of Tata global.

One thing that I found consistently interesting was that more often than not, their employees thought they were working for a small, independent business - and the principles would often use "we're only little" in negotiations.

When you manufacture a reality for long enough it becomes real - at least, real enough in the minds of beholders that any opposing reality is dismissed as priggish or jealous.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#143

Post by PeterisP »

rdtsc wrote: post #35

> , but it was a Republic Airlines flight operated by Republic Airlines pilots and flight attendants and under the operational control of Republic Airlines management. What's the point of mentioning that? They are wearing United Uniforms even. However United wants to distribute its routes, how it hires its contractors, flight attendants etc is its business. It seems like a way to divert blame. (United is great, it's…

It matters because it (a) sets the counterintuitive financial incentives that caused this situation and (b) explains why they couldn't pick seemingly reasonable alternative solutions which could have fixed this problem, but weren't possible because of this organization.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#144

Post by PeterisP »

fatbird wrote: post #25
sandworm101 wrote: post #4

The how and why these people were asked to get of the plane isn't the story. There is a big mash of different companies behind the uniforms. We know they are all cut-throats. But people are asked/told to get off planes every day. It isn't right but happens without issue every hour of every day. So for me this story begins and ends with why violence was used against this particular person. That has much less to do wit…

Rather than blame the goon squad, you should blame the king for ordering them into action. Or, in this case, the subcontracting sheriff's deputy. I think the more serious error here is the error you display: "people are asked/told to get off planes every day." That may be true, and maybe in most cases results in only a grumpy exit, but this situation seems to have exposed that it is not a legal requirement, and that…

It does matter, because the airline is not a king that can order police into action.

The airline can (and occasionally should) call the police. However, the police have a duty to investigate the dispute - if they instead act like a hired goon squad, then they should be blamed (and punished) for that, it's a violation of how they are allowed to work.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#145

Post by cjrp »

wfunction wrote: post #112
djsumdog wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracted pilots are often paid peanuts too. Some non-union pilots are even on food stamps. They might even be better off driving for Uber, and that's kinda terrible.

This is crazy! Any sources for this?

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights.

But hey, supply and demand. They wouldn't be able to pay so little if pilots weren't applying, and that won't change anytime soon because flying at a regional for a few years is a way to build hours and move on up to the mainline airline.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#146

Post by kefka »

rollingRelease wrote: post #127
chinathrow wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying more could help relocate and live in a comfortable distance to where you are based as a pilot. Renumeration is part of the structure.

But she didn't have to take that job. No one can account for the fact that someone from Seattle didn't have the resources to take on the job she desperately fought for. You know what I wanna be? A movie star! Pay me more than other entry level movie stars because I can't afford to become one on my own, please. I don't want to work at the Starbucks down the street. I want to move to Hollywood, but can't afford it, so…

And I suppose you'll say "You can just live on the streets and be homeless"

Let me guess: youre a libertarian?

Saying that due to the ridiculous dogma of "hurr durr you don't have to work there". Id also add, silver spoon as well.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#147

Post by jacquesm »

madaxe_again wrote: post #115
flukus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rubbish is everywhere. Contract cleaning (offices etc) for instance, used to be a profitable small business. Not enough to be rich, but enough for a big house with some decent amenities and to raise a family on a single income. Then in the 90's these gigs went into a pyramid of contracting and sub contracting companies where the company buying the service is paying more but the grunt doing the work is lucky to b…

Everything is marketing bullshit - I spent a decade running an ecommerce agency and got to see the bellies of many beasts. For instance, there's a pig related tea brand in the UK which is universally seen as funky and independent and all that shite. They're owned by tetley, who are in turn owned by tata. The ownership structure is sufficiently complex to make them look independent - but they aren't. It's just good ma…

> in the U.K. you can call pretty much any large business you like and you'll be talking to one of two huge call centre operators.

And whose employees aren't even near the UK. Call centers are some of the most easily outsourced jobs. And what with the UK having exported the ability to communicate fluently in English through its many years of empire building they've only themselves to blame for that one.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#148

Post by trprog »

edent wrote: post #79
tarsinge wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intrigued by how can it be cost competitive for the middle men, why aren't small business selling directly? Is the sales part the only edge of middle men?

Because a small company has the ability to supply cleaning to X square metres across one city. A middle-man can say "We will supply your cleaning in several cities no matter your office size." So a company pays a higher cost - but only has to deal with one contract, which saves them effort elsewhere. It's the same as taxi companies. It would be cheaper for you to call a small firm with lower overheads, but you're hap…

>So a company pays a higher cost - but only has to deal with one contract, which saves them effort elsewhere.

They have fewer contracts at any given time but also the contracts can last longer.

If I directly hire people to clean an office, when they don't want to do it anymore I need to find other people to do it. Selecting people, negotiating, getting payments set up with accounting etc. Its a distraction from more important stuff so I want to do this as rarely as possible.

If I hire a company/agency/middleman they can replace people without me having to even be aware its happening. At the point "keep the office clean" is essentially solved. Its possible I will never need to think about office cleaning ever again and I can get on with running my business.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#149

Post by jacquesm »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #131
madaxe_again wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is marketing bullshit - I spent a decade running an ecommerce agency and got to see the bellies of many beasts. For instance, there's a pig related tea brand in the UK which is universally seen as funky and independent and all that shite. They're owned by tetley, who are in turn owned by tata. The ownership structure is sufficiently complex to make them look independent - but they aren't. It's just good ma…

Oh, TeaPigs? With the dachshund mascot on the Darjeeling Earl Grey, and the brown-paper boxes, and the overpriced wares? Yeah, you can get those everywhere; they're clearly _way_ too mass-market to be properly independent. If you're spending cash money the on indie feel of things, you'll be buying BigCorp sooner or later. Better to just buy quality. > Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing prob…

> If you're spending cash money the on indie feel of things, you'll be buying BigCorp sooner or later. Better to just buy quality.

Most of these start out as quality. Then what happens is that during some survey BigCorp finds out that SmallQualityCorp is nibbling away at their sales & profits and then the next thing you know SmallQualityCorp has been acquired by BigCorp.

Re: Analysis of the United Airlines passenger removal incident

#150

Post by tyingq »

cjrp wrote: post #145
wfunction wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is crazy! Any sources for this?

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights. But hey, supply and dema…

I'm pretty sure that "per hour" is "block hours", such that they are paid only when the door shuts.

So there's a fair amount of waiting around that's uncompensated. There is a per-diem, but I don't think it goes beyond average cost for meals, lodging, etc.

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