Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

rexsoftware.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 81 posts

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#61

Post by sanswork »

hiram112 wrote: post #54
sanswork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've explained elsewhere why raising wages doesn't solve the problem. You are convinced there is no problem when you admittedly have no experience with the issue. You're also expecting to see changes that wouldn't fix the problem because of your lack of experience with The problem.

What you don't seem to understand is that the visa system destroys the whole concept of supply and demand. If your business can't hire workers, you will have to raise salaries. If you can't afford the higher salaries, you don't have a viable business (at least, without the use of wage arbitrage and indentured servants). The extra supply of labor will come into the market as soon as they're receiving signals that wage…

I've already responded to this claim in these comments. For what you say to be true there would need to be a large market of senior developers waiting in the wings refusing to work until wages go up.

You're also assuming the growth in jobs has been steady and predictable which it hasn't a spoiler in demand runs the whole idea that we just need more juniors starting.

The problem is companies can't wait so they can bring in workers who pay taxes here and contribute to the economy or they can move there jobs over seas. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of the latter going forward.

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#62

Post by sanswork »

hiram112 wrote: post #55
sanswork wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those students might be helpful for these roles in a decade. So do you expect these companies to survive just cooling their heels until then?

Too bad for these companies. They gamed with basic supply and demand. Lot of industries which don't abuse foreign labor as much have a steady pipeline of candidates because these grads saw your company - shitty wages, awful working conditions, no future - and bailed the fuck out and into a other career path. Now these companies, dependent on cheap visa labor, may have to pay back some of the fat cash they've gained b…

Tech doesn't need a steady pipeline there has been a huge increase in demand.

Where after you looking with shitty wages and awful working conditions? And what other career paths do you think these people bailed out into that have better pay?

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#63

Post by sanswork »

hiram112 wrote: post #56
catmanjan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As sanswork said, easy to get new devs, but as soon as they've put in a few years it's very easy to go out on your own or go overseas.

So what? You'll have to compete? You've gotten so used to your cheap labor, indentured workforce,that you can't even contemplate employees participating in a free market ?

There are 10 people working that can do the job there industry needs 15. How do you get the extra 5 just by increasing salaries?

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#64

Post by sanswork »

brokenmachine wrote: post #58
sanswork wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are claiming that the only thing holding you back from progressing your career is that you don't want to do more work for what you see as not enough money? If that is true you suffer from some serious short sightedness in regards to your career. AND you don't have any experience in the topic.

Well, we're only talking about me now, but I have pretty much decided that I do not want to progress any further in my current direction. I'm on a pretty good pay now and the work situation is acceptable. I am investigating ways to invest the money I have made/am still making in the best ways for the best possible return, and also looking to downshift by pursuing projects/businesses in my free time that I am simply i…

edit: I was being a dick here

It does make you unqualified because you haven't been on there other side of the table trying to hire ever.

The only person I saw was looking to change jobs which is to say leave their current employer with a need for an intermediate developer.

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#65

Post by jamhan »

Oh please. Spare us the pearl clutching. I'm willing to bet that if I filed a freedom of information act on this company's 457 applications that 1) there was little or no attempt to find a suitable candidate in the local market and 2) the 457s they did get have some relationship to employees already at the company.

The 457 visa was a government program that was being exploited, and quite obviously too, for quite some time, just like any government program eventually will be. For another recent example, look at what happened to the child care subsidy program. Government programs can serve a good purpose if they are well regulated and audited but comically and sadly for citizens they never are.

I just wonder if the 457 reforms would have taken so long if the Commonwealth Public Service had outsourced their IT to some South Asian consultancy and discovered that suddenly and mysteriously there were not enough skilled Australian IT workers to support them in Canberra (and elsewhere) and rather rapidly offices were filled with 457s. But this is exactly what large corporations in the private sector have done.

In IT and other sectors (notably health), companies are using 457s to save on employee salaries, pure and and simple. I have knowledge of assistants in medical practices being told to accept the lower salaries that their 457 co-workers are on or lose their jobs.

Oh, and it really annoys me what Atlassian founder Mike Cannon-Brookes keeps on saying. How about you invest in training locals instead of whinging all the time about not being able to import people?

BTW, I'm a UNSW CompSci graduate, 40+, have a lot of international experience, can operate at the technical and business level, speak a couple of languages, and after my last (5-year) contract ended I spent 2+ fruitless years searching for more IT work, while conspicuously the suburb I used to work in (with telcos, Cisco and software companies) filled with people from certain demographics. Despite all my experience, I didn't get invited to a single interview. Not one. Ageism and 457s killed the job market for people like me.

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#66

Post by AstralStorm »

sanswork wrote: post #62
hiram112 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad for these companies. They gamed with basic supply and demand. Lot of industries which don't abuse foreign labor as much have a steady pipeline of candidates because these grads saw your company - shitty wages, awful working conditions, no future - and bailed the fuck out and into a other career path. Now these companies, dependent on cheap visa labor, may have to pay back some of the fat cash they've gained b…

Tech doesn't need a steady pipeline there has been a huge increase in demand. Where after you looking with shitty wages and awful working conditions? And what other career paths do you think these people bailed out into that have better pay?

Sure it does need more talent, but alleged pipeline has been stalled by multiple factors.

1) Foreign and outsourced labour taking the entry level jobs preventing experience from accumulating.

2) Turning many jobs into glorified web apps and CRUD. Can't really go senior on that. You could on OSS or big and long personal projects but that takes a lot of time and thus money.

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#67

Post by sanswork »

AstralStorm wrote: post #66
sanswork wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech doesn't need a steady pipeline there has been a huge increase in demand. Where after you looking with shitty wages and awful working conditions? And what other career paths do you think these people bailed out into that have better pay?

Sure it does need more talent, but alleged pipeline has been stalled by multiple factors. 1) Foreign and outsourced labour taking the entry level jobs preventing experience from accumulating. 2) Turning many jobs into glorified web apps and CRUD. Can't really go senior on that. You could on OSS or big and long personal projects but that takes a lot of time and thus money.

1) Very few people are going to go through the hassle of sponsoring an overseas worker for a junior role. It's a pain in the ass. I think this is an issue that is hugely over stated.

2) I don't know if you remember this but back before everything was a crud web app they were crud desktop apps. Most development work just isn't ever that exciting.

Lastly you don't consider at all that demand has outpaced the pipeline.

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#68

Post by sanswork »

jamhan wrote: post #65

Oh please. Spare us the pearl clutching. I'm willing to bet that if I filed a freedom of information act on this company's 457 applications that 1) there was little or no attempt to find a suitable candidate in the local market and 2) the 457s they did get have some relationship to employees already at the company. The 457 visa was a government program that was being exploited, and quite obviously too, for quite some…

Atlassian hires tons of graduates.

> I spent 2+ fruitless years searching for more IT work, >I didn't get invited to a single interview

If you didn't get a single interview in two years of looking either you are vastly overestimating your capabilities compared to your CV or your CV is junk. How many different CVs did you try during that time? What are you skilled in? You say IT work but are you a programmer, ops, support? What are you business skills like? How does ageism factor in when you didn't even make it to the interviews for them to be able to tell your age?

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#69

Post by jamhan »

sanswork wrote: post #68
jamhan wrote: post #65

Oh please. Spare us the pearl clutching. I'm willing to bet that if I filed a freedom of information act on this company's 457 applications that 1) there was little or no attempt to find a suitable candidate in the local market and 2) the 457s they did get have some relationship to employees already at the company. The 457 visa was a government program that was being exploited, and quite obviously too, for quite some…

Atlassian hires tons of graduates. > I spent 2+ fruitless years searching for more IT work, >I didn't get invited to a single interview If you didn't get a single interview in two years of looking either you are vastly overestimating your capabilities compared to your CV or your CV is junk. How many different CVs did you try during that time? What are you skilled in? You say IT work but are you a programmer, ops, sup…

Are you really that obtuse? I write my CV. It has 20+ years of experience plus degree from my University. Simple math not your strong point perhaps?

Re: Software company's response to Australian government abolishing migrant visas

#70

Post by sanswork »

jamhan wrote: post #69
sanswork wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atlassian hires tons of graduates. > I spent 2+ fruitless years searching for more IT work, >I didn't get invited to a single interview If you didn't get a single interview in two years of looking either you are vastly overestimating your capabilities compared to your CV or your CV is junk. How many different CVs did you try during that time? What are you skilled in? You say IT work but are you a programmer, ops, sup…

Are you really that obtuse? I write my CV. It has 20+ years of experience plus degree from my University. Simple math not your strong point perhaps?

If you have 20+ years of experience on your CV it's a shit CV. Why would anyone hiring care what you were doing over 20 years ago?

I'm wondering what else was wrong with it that you didn't get a single response in 2 years of trying. Were you including unique cover letters? Where were you finding the jobs you were applying to? Did you try going through a recruiter?

Post reply on HN