Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair • Hacker News Board

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#171

Post by CPLX » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

stinkytaco wrote: post #54

CPLX wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is nonsense. Things got horrible for average workers at the dawn of the industrial revolution. Then they improved markedly due to progressive reforms, and are now rolling back in the face of regressive policies and rising inequality. It's not really that complicated. Progressive policies, regulation, and tax policy have better outcomes. There are just powerful and wealthy forces with vested interests working har…

I'm not talking about working conditions. I'm referring to employment. We need less people to do stuff. Thousands of years ago everyone was involved in subsistance. Pretty soon we developed technologies (the wheel, the plow) that meant we needed fewer people to do that. So people were able to move on to doing other things (like making pots or clothing). Pretty soon we automated those things as well (potters wheel, th…

> We need less people to do stuff.

A thousand years ago there were 400 million people on earth. Today there are 764 million jobs in China alone. So, on a literal basis at least, that's not turning out to be true so far.

Your supposition is that this time it's different than all the other times people have claimed that automation and technology will make everyone idle.

But maybe it's not different this time. Maybe technological advancement proceeds relentlessly and has for awhile, and today only looks special because we're in it. Maybe the mechanisms by which economies achieve full employment don't work in the way you're describing.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#172

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

Wohlf wrote: post #164

gambiting wrote: post #25

"America is not a great place for people [....]" It seems to be true in general, unless you have a boatload of money, but then I would argue you would be ok pretty much anywhere. HN has been bombarded with such grim news of the US that I honestly feel bad for Americans(maybe I shouldn't, I don't know), but at least on paper, the world's greatest country doesn't look that great to live in anymore(UK is looking worse a…

You think this because you've bought in to media hyperbole. America and the UK are fine places to live, they may have some problems but they are fine. Our homeless are often better off than the lower classes of many countries and millions of people risk life, limb, and fortune to come here.

You think this because you've bought in to media hyperbole

I love it when people make evidence-free assumptions about other people they know nothing about. That's what makes this society great.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#173

Post by joatmon-snoo » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #155

dkhenry wrote: post #28

The tolerance for abject racism in the media these days is appalling. This article's contents have nothing to do with race, and more to do with economic status. This is the flip side of a media that has espoused the ideals of identity politics, they can't even see past someone's racial grouping to identify a problem facing all Americans ( and most likely other nations too in our globalized economy ). Bloomberg should…

Do you know what racism is? Because I'm not seeing any in this article. Just because an article makes mention of the hardships of some white people doesn't make the article racism. This article is specifically about how WHITE Americans, who traditionally could become extremely successful in life without college degrees, are now finding that is no longer the case. That's not racism. That's journalism. Racism would be…

The problem that GP is getting at is that while, sure, the article factually doesn't have any problems, it's quite disingenuous to imply that now that white America is faced with these issues, this is a serious problem - even though these are issues which have been historically pervasive in many minority groups.

It may not fit the traditional idea of Jim Crow style racism, but the article's implications are certainly there.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#174

Post by dkhenry » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

allemagne wrote: post #83

dkhenry wrote: post #28

The tolerance for abject racism in the media these days is appalling. This article's contents have nothing to do with race, and more to do with economic status. This is the flip side of a media that has espoused the ideals of identity politics, they can't even see past someone's racial grouping to identify a problem facing all Americans ( and most likely other nations too in our globalized economy ). Bloomberg should…

They address why they're looking at whites a few paragraphs in, though >While blacks and Hispanics without college degrees are also falling behind economically and socially, middle-age mortality has worsened for whites in particular over the past 20 years—a fact some attribute partly to social context. Do you specifically disagree with this?

Yes! to say this is a racial social context issue is so far off the mark as to make this blatantly racist. Compare mortality directly with economic markers, obviously a group of people who historically have been less economically disadvantaged are going to regress to the mean faster then a group that has been living with it for generations.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#175

Post by temp-dude-87844 » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #152

posguy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

Im from the outside looking in, but I never understood why a lot of parents with kids with only average or below average academic skills don't think of encouraging their kids into getting a trade like plumbing, electrician, car repair etc. they don't "waste" time learning subjects that they see as irrelevant and everything they learn is directly related to their future career. I don't see a time where there isn't a n…

Some do, particularly when a parent is already in that trade, the child is on good terms with the parent, and the child shows some promise. These family businesses tend to work out well if the business is already successful.

But when the business isn't successful, the resentment builds on both sides. Blue-collar trades are not considered societally desirable and working in the parents' business or career some interpret as a lack of ambition. These factors combine with geography to greatly affect the dating pool for such people, further restricting an avenue of social mobility whose availability was more widespread historically.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#176

Post by tangent128 » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #71

cmahler7 wrote: post #35

We're at the point where the United State can either become utopia or dystopia. Automation can either allow everyone to do whatever they want with almost unlimited leisure, or continue as it has destroying the middle class and consolidating wealth for the elite. I used to be hardcore capitalism but if something isn't done to spread the wealth we are going to have our own French revolution with the plebes rising up ag…

It's not the robots, otherwise we would have seen skyrocketing productivity. Also, the easy solution to the robot problem is to allow everyone to own robots.

Everybody's already allowed to own robots; the sticking point, especially for the unemployed, is affordability.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#177

Post by joatmon-snoo » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

allemagne wrote: post #83

dkhenry wrote: post #28

The tolerance for abject racism in the media these days is appalling. This article's contents have nothing to do with race, and more to do with economic status. This is the flip side of a media that has espoused the ideals of identity politics, they can't even see past someone's racial grouping to identify a problem facing all Americans ( and most likely other nations too in our globalized economy ). Bloomberg should…

They address why they're looking at whites a few paragraphs in, though >While blacks and Hispanics without college degrees are also falling behind economically and socially, middle-age mortality has worsened for whites in particular over the past 20 years—a fact some attribute partly to social context. Do you specifically disagree with this?

This comment misses the point - that by focusing specifically on white America, there's the subtle implication that now that white America is facing issues that minorities have faced for generations, this is a problem that we should care about.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#178

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #158

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that life has always been like this for many blacks. Whites - even working-class whites - used to be more immune to this kind of despair. What's different is that the lack of economic opportunity is starting to destroy whites as well. (Yes, it always was there to some degree, but the intensity is new.) Now, we as a society should have cared when it was happening to blacks. But it is a significant change that…

I'm black, and a small part of me is enraged when I read these kinds of articles. This kind of sh*t has been happening in the Black community for GENERATIONS. No one cares until it's white people though. That said, maybe once people see that this sort of despair is beginning to affect white people, they will gain more empathy for all the black people suffering the same way.

I would like to think so but the political direction that a suffering white middle class is taking us I'm afraid will not improve things for everyone equally.

Growing up in the rural south I have heard literally my entire life how most of our problems are caused by government greed and immigrant, not massive wealth inequality. At the same time on NPR you might hear about the terrible working conditions immigrants deal with, lack of labor protections, minimum wage abuses but as far as many in the white middle class are concerned the problem is down, not up.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#179

Post by dkhenry » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

magic_beans wrote: post #158

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that life has always been like this for many blacks. Whites - even working-class whites - used to be more immune to this kind of despair. What's different is that the lack of economic opportunity is starting to destroy whites as well. (Yes, it always was there to some degree, but the intensity is new.) Now, we as a society should have cared when it was happening to blacks. But it is a significant change that…

I'm black, and a small part of me is enraged when I read these kinds of articles. This kind of sh*t has been happening in the Black community for GENERATIONS. No one cares until it's white people though. That said, maybe once people see that this sort of despair is beginning to affect white people, they will gain more empathy for all the black people suffering the same way.

This is exactly it. We are all pretneding that this is some kind of racial problem that is a big deal because its white people. This trend has been happening throughout the country for decades and we are to just pretend this is some kind of white person problem that is to be solved by making sure rural citizens have more opportunities to succeed.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#180

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

zeteo wrote: post #153

anigbrowl wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skills in sports, arts and cooking are highly marketable and the evidence of this abundant, just switch on your TV. These are also highly competitive injuries in which a great deal of strategy is needed to succeed because the economics are brutal and the media is dedicated to presenting (almost) only the upsides in order to attract an ongoing supply of cheap labor that can be exploited for short-term profit. I resent…

Yes, and winning the lottery is highly marketable too, isn't it? I didn't say working in sports, arts or cooking was a stupid job. The stupid job is what you get if you can't make any money using the skills you've developed.

Apparently you think that anything other than being at the peak of one's profession is a 'stupid job.' There are large numbers of jobs that depend on people being diligent rather than innovative, and those jobs are certainly easier to automate, but that does not make them stupid jobs. Stop devaluing hard work just because some people choose predictability over risk.