Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair • Hacker News Board

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#101

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #18

“America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree, and I don’t think that’s going to get better anytime soon,” said Angus Deaton, a Nobel Prize-winning Princeton University economist. Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated. The truth is, US high schools miserably fail the non-colleg…

Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated.

Commenting that 'America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree' is not looking down on the less educated, it's an observation about how society at large treats the less educated. Between this and your description of one of the world's leading economic thinkers as a 'Princeton egghead', It's hard to give much weight to anything else you say.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#102

Post by posguy » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #29

sbardle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a school where a number of friends were not academic in the slightest. They left as soon as they could often with no qualifications but gradually learnt trades. Many now have their own businesses (one is a plasterer, another a builder) and they earn good money, own their own homes, and have no student debt. The reason? They had supportive parents. Many of the people who are falling into despair tragically c…

I'm guessing the successful people you're describing do not have severe learning disabilities. And I find it at least questionable that parenting has gotten markedly less supportive in the past few decades.

In a way, parents can support their kids less today. Wages have stagnated and stratified heavily, leaving the median home with less effective income, meanwhile the cost of college has gone from free (at public institutions) and nominal at private schools ($400/yr adjusted) to over $10k a year minimum.

Housing rising in cost is only dog piling on and exacerbating the issue.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#103

Post by dorgo » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #72

posguy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

So is it just the stigma that prevents people from getting 100K a year? I mean if it's as easy as it sounds in your comment, there should be loads of people signing up. And I'm guessing you don't end up with 80K+ in student loans?

As a programmer in Germany I don't even get half of that. Where can I sign?

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#104

Post by zeteo » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

> Johnson started using opioids in high school after breaking his collarbone, first in football and again while wrestling [... T]hings slipped out of control after he graduated and found that his skills — art and cooking, but not academics — meant little in the workforce.

> At one point [... he] got a full-time job making wood pallets. [...] “It’s a stupid job. It doesn’t matter if you’re high to work it”

It's hard not to think the kid was let down by the system. It should be inconceivable that you can go through K-12 without being told very sternly that a) skills in sports, art and cooking are not very marketable, and will probably only get you "stupid jobs" b) in the current environment, even McD may require a college degree soon, so you'd better bite the bullet on those academic skills. Any adult in a position of responsibility should have known these facts. Yet for 12+ years they've failed to communicate them. The kids are allowed to drift aimlessly, and then it's somehow their fault if they end up in a very bad place at the end.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#105

Post by throwanem » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #85

throwanem wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joy and happiness are nice things to have. Making rent every month is nicer.

Of course rent is important. But we don't need a 3/2 when a 2/1 will meet all of our needs. I feel like we are driven to buy things beyond our needs and our inability to afford those things is one of the drivers of despair.

It's not nothing. But it's nothing next to the fear of ending up homeless.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#106

Post by striking » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #25

"America is not a great place for people [....]" It seems to be true in general, unless you have a boatload of money, but then I would argue you would be ok pretty much anywhere. HN has been bombarded with such grim news of the US that I honestly feel bad for Americans(maybe I shouldn't, I don't know), but at least on paper, the world's greatest country doesn't look that great to live in anymore(UK is looking worse a…

It's easy to pass judgement on a place you don't live in.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#107

Post by droopyEyelids » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

gramstrong wrote: post #75

cmahler7 wrote: post #35

We're at the point where the United State can either become utopia or dystopia. Automation can either allow everyone to do whatever they want with almost unlimited leisure, or continue as it has destroying the middle class and consolidating wealth for the elite. I used to be hardcore capitalism but if something isn't done to spread the wealth we are going to have our own French revolution with the plebes rising up ag…

>Automation can either allow everyone to do whatever they want with almost unlimited leisure This will literally never happen. The labor force will look a lot different, the average person will be much more educated. But we are never going to be in a perpetual state of leisure, or anything resembling it, lest we want to halt human progress in place. All automation does is allow us to focus on larger problems, or crea…

I was with you until "lest we halt human progress in its place"

Look back on history and I bet all the things you think of as great achievements in human progress were the result of the leisure class's hobbies. Especially Math and Science!

Theres a darker reason why the majority of people won't be enjoying leisure- because the power to force people to work is actually a pleasure and a value of the ruling classes, and nearly everyone has internalized it.

Thats why you hear an outcry against welfare or basic income, but not a peep about trust funds or inheritances.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#108

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

cmahler7 wrote: post #35

We're at the point where the United State can either become utopia or dystopia. Automation can either allow everyone to do whatever they want with almost unlimited leisure, or continue as it has destroying the middle class and consolidating wealth for the elite. I used to be hardcore capitalism but if something isn't done to spread the wealth we are going to have our own French revolution with the plebes rising up ag…

I agree with you, but unfortunately the elites will be the last to suffer. They have been quite effective in blaming the victim for years and will continue to blame immigrants, pc-culture, mexico, regulations and any number of manufactured boogeymen.

Once immigrants have been stomped down, minority rights done away with and the environment wrecked maybe people will turn on the elites but by that time we won't have much worth saving I'm afraid.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#109

Post by stinkytaco » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

stvswn wrote: post #38

posguy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

The skilled trades are very highly regarded among many, many people -- just not the same people who go to four year research universities. I was an officer and platoon leader in the Army, the endgame for a lot of my soldiers was to use their GI Bill benefits to get to trade school and then become an apprentice in a union. They considered making it in one of the sought-after trades really "making it." If you've ever h…

I'm actually reminded of this quote from Will Durant about Aristotle's attitude towards manual labor, which I've always found amusing so I might as well share it here:

"Such work in Athens had not become so complicated as it is today, when the intelligence demanded in many manual trades is at times much greater than that required for the operations of the lower middle class, and even a college professor may look upon an automobile mechanic (in certain exigencies) as a very god"

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#110

Post by breatheoften » Wed, Apr 19, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

thesagan wrote: post #15

posguy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the power of capital over labor, whereby capital is extremely stratified in the hands of very few people, and they have shifted political power so as to avoid investment in the laborers (aka everyone below themselves) and ensure they do not become a threat. Additionally, they will usually influence monetary policy to ensure their status is never challenged, which is why rapidly rising housing prices aren't a majo…

Within capitalism itself, some economists also argue that wealth concentration tends to suppress investment opportunities, because there aren't as many "moneyed eyes" on economic events worthy of capital and management; investment gets tunnel vision. I don't have any links on-hand but there's plenty of material out there (from reputable sources, and not-so-reputable ones) with a quick Google search. https://www.googl…

It seems like capitalism really needs something like a wealth tax -- ideally with the rate tied to the change in concentration of wealth over the whole society, so during periods of time when capital is concentrating, the wealth tax goes up vs epochs when it does not...

Interestingly, I was reading about the idea of a wealth tax and came across this depressing nugget ...:

> In 1999, Donald Trump proposed for the United States a one off 14.25% wealth tax on the net worth of individuals and trusts worth $10 million or more. Trump claimed that this would generate $5.7 trillion in new taxes, which could be used to eliminate the national debt.[18] A net wealth tax may also be designed to be revenue neutral as where it is used to broaden the tax base, stabilize the economy and reduce individual income and other taxes[citation needed].