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Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

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Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#31

Post by throwanem »

posguy wrote: post #16
cryptarch wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe learning a craft could work for him? Woodworking, metalworking, glass-blowing, programming? An apprenticeship might just be right up his alley, but I'm not sure how available that is in the US.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

Not highly regarded by some in the US.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#32

Post by posguy »

thesagan wrote: post #15
posguy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the power of capital over labor, whereby capital is extremely stratified in the hands of very few people, and they have shifted political power so as to avoid investment in the laborers (aka everyone below themselves) and ensure they do not become a threat. Additionally, they will usually influence monetary policy to ensure their status is never challenged, which is why rapidly rising housing prices aren't a majo…

Within capitalism itself, some economists also argue that wealth concentration tends to suppress investment opportunities, because there aren't as many "moneyed eyes" on economic events worthy of capital and management; investment gets tunnel vision. I don't have any links on-hand but there's plenty of material out there (from reputable sources, and not-so-reputable ones) with a quick Google search. https://www.googl…

Seems like basic economic theory, the more capital you have flowing through the economy at a lower level, the more opportunities there are. Whereas these 8 people are siloing their wealth in investments, that same money divided up among people of low income would be spent upwards of 3x, and given to the middle class iirc it was something around a 2x factor. Both are much better for our economy than having that wealth sit siloed as an investment.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#34

Post by CPLX »

stinkytaco wrote: post #20

We've been on a collision course with this since we left subsistence agriculture and started living in larger groups. Automation's rate has accelerated since the industrial revolution, but it's been happening for thousands of years, which is why I think more people don't see it as a problem. Society's increased consumerism and rising standards of living has allowed people to move into producing things other than food…

That is nonsense. Things got horrible for average workers at the dawn of the industrial revolution. Then they improved markedly due to progressive reforms, and are now rolling back in the face of regressive policies and rising inequality.

It's not really that complicated. Progressive policies, regulation, and tax policy have better outcomes. There are just powerful and wealthy forces with vested interests working hard to argue otherwise.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#35

Post by cmahler7 »

We're at the point where the United State can either become utopia or dystopia.

Automation can either allow everyone to do whatever they want with almost unlimited leisure, or continue as it has destroying the middle class and consolidating wealth for the elite.

I used to be hardcore capitalism but if something isn't done to spread the wealth we are going to have our own French revolution with the plebes rising up against the elite. The anger that got trump elected is just the beginning if things don't change

Unfortunately, basic human nature probably won't allow this change to happen without violence.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#36

Post by pm90 »

thesagan wrote: post #15
posguy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the power of capital over labor, whereby capital is extremely stratified in the hands of very few people, and they have shifted political power so as to avoid investment in the laborers (aka everyone below themselves) and ensure they do not become a threat. Additionally, they will usually influence monetary policy to ensure their status is never challenged, which is why rapidly rising housing prices aren't a majo…

Within capitalism itself, some economists also argue that wealth concentration tends to suppress investment opportunities, because there aren't as many "moneyed eyes" on economic events worthy of capital and management; investment gets tunnel vision. I don't have any links on-hand but there's plenty of material out there (from reputable sources, and not-so-reputable ones) with a quick Google search. https://www.googl…

That makes a lot of sense actually, and has historically been the trend that most societies took. Once you accumulate wealth and power, you do everything to keep it.

Democracy and diffusion of political power have been very recent phenomena, in the larger scheme of things.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#37

Post by Jtsummers »

ams6110 wrote: post #18

“America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree, and I don’t think that’s going to get better anytime soon,” said Angus Deaton, a Nobel Prize-winning Princeton University economist. Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated. The truth is, US high schools miserably fail the non-colleg…

  Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view.
                          ^^^^^^^
Surprised to see this on HN. Anyways, it's not just a point of view, it's backed by data. Only having a high school diploma is objectively worse (with regards to both financial and physical well-being amongst other metrics). It's not looking down on the less-educated, it's pointing out that the circumstances are bad for them. My English and history PhD friends are in worse positions too (at least financially) despite being a hell of a lot better educated than me.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#38

Post by stvswn »

posguy wrote: post #16
cryptarch wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe learning a craft could work for him? Woodworking, metalworking, glass-blowing, programming? An apprenticeship might just be right up his alley, but I'm not sure how available that is in the US.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

The skilled trades are very highly regarded among many, many people -- just not the same people who go to four year research universities.

I was an officer and platoon leader in the Army, the endgame for a lot of my soldiers was to use their GI Bill benefits to get to trade school and then become an apprentice in a union. They considered making it in one of the sought-after trades really "making it."

If you've ever hired an electrician in the Bay Area, btw -- let me tell you, these guys are doing pretty well for themselves.

Re: Young White America Is Haunted by a Crisis of Despair

#40

Post by pc86 »

stinkytaco wrote: post #30
posguy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For plumbers, electricians and a few other trades you can become a journeyman apprentice in the US, and after a few years you can earn high 5 digits to low 6 digits with healthcare usually. That being said, its a mature industry and not highly regarded in the US as it is a "blue collar" job. Stigmatizing & devaluing an honest days work is ridiculous to me, but that is what our society has done to these jobs.

You also likely can't work into your 60s doing work like this. Some people move into management, assessment, inspection, etc, but not everyone can do that. There's more going on here than stigmatization (which I rarely see in real life), these jobs have a different set of concerns that we aren't good at dealing with socially.

Barring accidents, injury, or bad luck (e.g. a car crash or something), you can absolutely save enough to retire as a plumber before your body starts to break down. Especially if you assume SS will still be around for a new plumber's retirement, which may or may not be the case. Even without, it's doable. I know two plumbers socially and both are in their late 40's. One owns a plumbing business so mainly does office/marketing tasks but one is just a standard plumber and does plenty well for himself and his family.
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