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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#301

Post by an_cap »

Banthum wrote: post #274
an_cap wrote: post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

I'll begin with a simple analogy. Your house is for your family, including children who have never done anything to earn it. Why can't other people come in, eat your food, watch your TV, and sleep in your bed? Why should other people, or other children, not have the same rights to your home as your children do, just because of the circumstances of their birth? II So, you can see that "one shouldn't be discriminated a…

I agree than one has greater positive obligations towards one's community, with the degree of obligation decreasing with the size of the community. However, one also has certain negative obligations against strangers. For instance, there is a strong presumption in favor of a stranger's right to not be killed by you. This is just a presumption which can be over-ridden say in self-defense.

Similarly two strangers have the presumptive right to associate with each other (as employer-employee or tenant-landlord). Do you agree that there is such a presumption? If there is, what if your view is the needed to overcome this presumption?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#302

Post by jldugger »

pm90 wrote: post #91
jldugger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basking in future billionaires could mean taxing them to fix US education systems (or a lifetime supply of mojitos, I don't care) so it's not all bad. But there's a knock on effect -- if you go to the effort of sponsoring an H1-B with the intention of underpaying them, then changing the rules to allow visa holders to leave you for a job that pays job (or better work-life balance or has a mojito bar) would leave you h…

I think this is a rather pessimistic view of the benefits of hiring intelligent and hard working people to work for your country's companies. Its most certainly not in the disparity of pay; more because they provide more value , due to said intelligence and proclivity to work hard.

I don't see it as a pessimistic view. Any employer committed to rewarding people for their value shouldn't need to rely on an omnipresent threat of deportation. I see myself as optimistic that such employers do exist, and should be happy to both recruit such foreign workers to US shores, and happy to poach them from other US firms.

Free movement between employers would likely free up only places like Wipro, Tata and the like, whose business models appear to rely on disparity of pay.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#303

Post by rajathagasthya »

burfog wrote: post #296
whitenoice wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably cause the admission committee thought all those students are equally talented as you are. India has a huge population with 50% of its population below the age of 25. India and China together are close to 1/3rd of the worlds population. You should be happy the you are getting to interact with the cream of smart students from these countries :) Key part of education is learning and working with your smart peer…

You don't get to interact, learn with, and work with them. They separate themselves from you. They speak their own language, which isn't easy to learn. They don't celebrate your holidays, either national or religious. Since they are likely leaving the country, neither professional nor romantic relationships are likely to be viable. Half of the ones from India even sort of despise you based on religion. So in a classr…

Textbook stereotyping if I ever saw one.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#304

Post by mavelikara »

whitenoice wrote: post #237
gragas wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's not true. The American Universities don't choose to admit foreign students just because. The good schools always try to balance the mix of students admitted into the program. Then why do Indians make up more than 30% of my school's CS program, despite them making up less than 1% of the US population?

Probably cause the admission committee thought all those students are equally talented as you are. India has a huge population with 50% of its population below the age of 25. India and China together are close to 1/3rd of the worlds population. You should be happy the you are getting to interact with the cream of smart students from these countries :) Key part of education is learning and working with your smart peer…

> You should be happy the you are getting to interact with the cream of smart students from these countries :)

Smart and wealthy - not everyone in India or China can afford to study in US.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#305

Post by jondubois »

>> For within their ranks may lurk the next Elon Musk or Sergey Brin.

Just because Elon and Sergey are one in a hundred million in terms of wealth, it doesn't mean that they're also one in a hundred million in terms of talent. In fact, that's extremely unlikely statistically.

I think that Elon and Sergey are in the top 0.1% of the population in terms of talent. This is a good ratio but when you look at it this way, you understand that there are a lot of people who are qualified to be the next Elon or Sergey and the fear that a few select individuals will "miss out" on their rightful position on the Forbes list (based purely on skill/merit) is ridiculous.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#306

Post by raverbashing »

AnAnonyCowherd wrote: post #181
zzleeper wrote: post #98

I went through the entire comment thread and feel like you guys are missing a lot of the H1B benefits by focusing just on tech and the effect of the Indian consultancies. Most PhDs, specially in STEM, math, stats, econ, etc. are not American. And almost all of them end up with a H1B visa at some point if they remain in the US. It might be lottery based if you go to work at any firm, or quota-free if it is in academia…

> Now, what happens if you kill the H1B? Companies all start paying the premium for these most-sought-after and most-specialized technologists, as they should , which then causes more native-born people to pursue these jobs, knowing they won't be arbitrarily undercut by the lottery, and reaping the benefits of a top-dollar US-based education. To me, it's a national investment argument. Does a nation NOT want perfectl…

Or, they offshore more of it

(which for TCS "Java developer" type of work is just fine and dandy)

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#307

Post by warcher »

zzleeper wrote: post #98

I went through the entire comment thread and feel like you guys are missing a lot of the H1B benefits by focusing just on tech and the effect of the Indian consultancies. Most PhDs, specially in STEM, math, stats, econ, etc. are not American. And almost all of them end up with a H1B visa at some point if they remain in the US. It might be lottery based if you go to work at any firm, or quota-free if it is in academia…

The essential problem, as I see it, is that the H-1B is being explicitly used to depress wages for US citizens in the vast majority of cases.

The solution (which we'll never see) is just to de-couple the H1-B from a particular employer. Go on the open market, get a job at market rates, but don't play the indentured servitude game they're forcing you into now. That's all.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#308

Post by robk »

rajathagasthya wrote: post #141
clairity wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out)." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i agree with everything you said except for this part. many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts. in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this…

> in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this country This is the discussion that's always missing whenever H1B is discussed anywhere. It always gets hijacked by Indian IT companies abusing the system. Does the administration have a plan on how to deal with students who get their degrees from US universities, who also seek H1Bs to work? If they don't make this…

But then Infosys sets up Infosys University and calls all their applicants students

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#309

Post by flukus »

johnnyb9 wrote: post #252
an_account wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the opposite at many public universities. "Out of state" and international students subsidize in state students because they pay far greater tuition.

I have trouble believing students are paying less tuition because there is a greater demand from international students. If anything, the tuition would be higher. That international students are more profitable doesn't change the value of the degree or what everyone else is willing to pay for it.

They still need someone to keep the reputation up. The revenue stream has to pass regardless of capability.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#310

Post by hamstergene »

clairity wrote: post #136
dmitrygr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, nobody wants that effect. We want the PhDs. What we do not want it companies that bring in cheap barely-qualified labour for cost-cutting. This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out). This hurts the local workers who cost too much compared to this effectively-slave-labour. The hard part changing the rules such that PhDs and other productive uses of H1B do not su…

"This hurts the people brought in (they are stuck in bad jobs with bad pay and no way out)." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i agree with everything you said except for this part. many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts. in any case, we should let every person seeking higher education in the US work indefinitely in this…

> many of the indian workers are still better off economically than they might otherwise be, even if they are not as well off as their american counterparts.

Isn't that exactly the main criticism of current H1B system: driving down salaries and standard of living away from U.S. standards down towards India's?

However better off they are economically they would be even better if companies couldn't exploit their status to pay less. And American counterparts would be better off if they didn't have to compete with lower paid competition. Everyone would be better. Well, except the companies.

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