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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

271–280 of 467 posts

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#271
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

People expect their government to protect them from people of other nations in matters of physical and economic security. h1-B workers at Tata etc drive down wages.

Globally, labor isn't scarce. If there were a true global labor pool, wages in USA would be further depressed.

People have no intrinsic right to immigrate into the country of their choice (they do have a right to leave their country if another will take them, however..)

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#272
post #263
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

Right, if you assume away the legitimacy of national borders and nations' right to determine admittance and membership, than any immigration restriction whatsoever looks pretty atrocious (including H1Bs). FWIW, the same assumption would eliminate your ability to object when a foreign army wants to peacefully enter on the pretense of just wanting a better life. And if you assume away the legitimacy of property rights,…

I don't give away my right to object when a black army moves into my neighborhood on the pretense of just wanting a better life. And yet I do demand strong evidence that this is a likely scenario before essentially banning black people from my neighborhood.

The correct analogy is not that you're being forced to accept a homeless person into your property. Its that if I want to accept a homeless person into my property, you shouldn't be allowed to prevent me from doing so. Unless you make a convincing case that they're going to invade you. Which I don't think you have.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#273
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

I'll take the bait.. > Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of race or gender but okay to discriminate on the basis of citizenship/country of birth?

Because, a country and it's city, and infrastructure have been built by money spent on by a bunch of people who paid taxes. For a another country, person to come in enjoy the infrastructure, make money and compete with the ones who paid for the infrastructure is unfair by design.

Disclaimer: I'm an Indian working in India.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#274
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

I'll begin with a simple analogy.

Your house is for your family, including children who have never done anything to earn it. Why can't other people come in, eat your food, watch your TV, and sleep in your bed? Why should other people, or other children, not have the same rights to your home as your children do, just because of the circumstances of their birth?

II

So, you can see that "one shouldn't be discriminated against based on one's circumstances at birth" is not actually a universal principle at all. It's a general goal, but must be tempered by other concerns.

In this it's like honesty - as a general goal, we should try to be honest. But being 100% honest every moment would be foolish and harmful. Morality is more complex than applying simplistic rules without exception.

III

People have communities which they care about more than other, more distant communities. Your family, then your neighborhood, your city, your province/state, your country, humanity, all of life. You can mix in your tribe (if you have one), language group, class, race, sports team fans, or whatever else you like in there. The point is that an eternal part of human life, since our earliest beginnings, has been to form concentric in-groups with loyalty and concern falling off as you move away from the self.

Why? Since other people are loyal to you the same way, that creates the possibility of a mutual structure - a tight family with strong loyalty in both directions, then a country of people with good mutual loyalty, then a world of humans who care about each other somewhat. We all benefit from this, and it's also sustainable.

If you want to be suicidally moral, you can start treating every human as well as you treat yourself. In some sense, I'd applaud you. But what you're doing won't last and won't have a long-term impact on humanity. You'll rapidly exhaust yourself as you give away your resources while nobody gives anything to you. In the end, your behavior will be wiped out by unstoppable Darwinian forces.

If you want to be sustainably moral, you need to set up loyalty and care that runs reasonably symmetrically across relations, so it can be maintained that way.

Because morality is not absolutes. It is a negotiation between Darwinian principles and our desire to be more than apes, murdering and raping and pumping out as many kids as we can. You cannot ignore either side of this fundamental tension.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#275
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

Jeeze, way to compare apples to oranges. Ultimately this is not a debate of discrimination (which you seem to be trying to shoe-horn into the conversation), it's a debate about exploitation. The argument is about the abuse of a well-intentioned program to exploit workers in other nations that are not protected by systems in the US and are thus, cheaper. I would argue that most people consider H1B-abuse and immigration reform distinct, yet related, discussions. It is possible to oppose the H1B program yet support immigration reform.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#276
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H-1Bs are law-abiding people and therefore the easiest immigrant group to attack, unlike illegals they will leave when told so.

H-1B visa holders are not immigrants as the H-1B is not an immigrant visa.

It is a dual intent visa - so "immigrant intent" is allowed.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#277
post #272
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if you assume away the legitimacy of national borders and nations' right to determine admittance and membership, than any immigration restriction whatsoever looks pretty atrocious (including H1Bs). FWIW, the same assumption would eliminate your ability to object when a foreign army wants to peacefully enter on the pretense of just wanting a better life. And if you assume away the legitimacy of property rights,…

I don't give away my right to object when a black army moves into my neighborhood on the pretense of just wanting a better life. And yet I do demand strong evidence that this is a likely scenario before essentially banning black people from my neighborhood. The correct analogy is not that you're being forced to accept a homeless person into your property. Its that if I want to accept a homeless person into my propert…

Other people you live with don't want to accept a homeless person into the home.

And, you are part of a social contract between these other people you live with (e.g. your countrymen) where you can't just override them.

If you had your own country where nobody else lived, where you had no social contract with anyone, it would be fine for you to let anyone in (of course, you wouldn't have a country for long).

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#278
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

People expect their government to protect them from people of other nations in matters of physical and economic security. h1-B workers at Tata etc drive down wages. Globally, labor isn't scarce. If there were a true global labor pool, wages in USA would be further depressed. People have no intrinsic right to immigrate into the country of their choice (they do have a right to leave their country if another will take t…

Whites expect other whites to protect them from people of other colors in matters of physical and economic security. H-1Black workers drive down white wages.

Blacks have no intrinsic right to move into the white neighborhood of their choice (they do have the right to leave their ghetto if another will take them, however..)

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#279
I am always confused by all the it hurts job market for local candidates thing as it relates to tech jobs. There is huge amount of unfilled positions. The company I am at has many hundreds of open positions that they can not fill with qualified people regardless of their visa/citizenship and I am pretty sure this is not a unique situation. The pay rate is also same regardless of visa status to the best of my knowledge.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#280
post #258

Suppose we lived in an America in which if a black person wanted to work in the tech industry they had to get a special license from the federal government called the H-1Black license. Nobody here on HN would then be discussing if companies were abusing the H-1Black system or whether H-1Black workers were being paid less than the going market rate. A minimally decent person would notice that the obviously correct thi…

I'll begin with a simple analogy. Your house is for your family, including children who have never done anything to earn it. Why can't other people come in, eat your food, watch your TV, and sleep in your bed? Why should other people, or other children, not have the same rights to your home as your children do, just because of the circumstances of their birth? II So, you can see that "one shouldn't be discriminated a…

I find very little to disagree with in what you say. All I ask for is a presumption in favor of allowing a willing foreigner to work for a willing employer. And I think that small harms like reduction in wages from say 100k/year to 60k/year is not sufficient to override that presumption especially since for the foreigner, the opportunity to work in the US often translates to a 5-fold increase in their income.
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