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UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

theguardian.com

291–300 of 336 posts

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#291
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vote Lib Dem. Seriously. I am a candidate in very north london, we're all organised for this possibility.

Vote for your Progressive Alliance candidate. Both Greens and Lib Dems have signed up to this and will hopefully put forward one agreed candidate locally in your area. Basically you are voting for an Anti-Brexit and pro proportional representation candidate. This is not about party allegiance, this is all about brexit.

This is not about party allegiance, this is all about brexit.

Which, frankly, is scary in itself. Brexit, in whatever form, is far the only thing that matters in government. We also have significant and immediate concerns about the NHS, the education system at several different levels, our transport and communications infrastructure, our energy infrastructure, the environment and natural resources, the changing nature of work and employment, over-centralisation around London, the erosion of civil liberties, and other issues. Many of these could have far greater effects on the average citizen than anything to do with Brexit is likely to cause, even over the next few years and certainly in the long term, but they're being drowned out by an issue that is, in the big picture, simply not that big a deal.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#292
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why vote Lib Dem? If the last election turned out slightly differently and the Conservatives still needed the coalition, I bet they'd be out happily singing the praises of Brexit to us all, and walking back their campaign promises. They previously always had a "were not like Labour/Con" cred, but the coalition showed that this simply is not true

Brexit is more important than college fees.

Brexit is more important than college fees.

Is it, really?

People say things like this a lot at the moment, but the objective reality is that for a lot of graduates in the current tuition fees and student loans system, they are leaving university already tens of thousands of pounds in debt.

Earning anything resembling a "normal" graduate salary -- which of course isn't guaranteed these days -- they will then be making repayments that effectively increase their marginal income tax rate by a whopping 9%.

And with the current rate of inflation and the 3% extra interest that gets added on top, most of those repayments will actually just be servicing interest.

Bottom line: a young person graduating this year will have huge debts at the start of their career, they could be facing an extra tax-like burden for most of their working lives, and they're entering a workforce that demands more and offers less than any previous generation in recent history has faced. And that's before you even consider things like the housing market or the likelihood of that generation receiving a useful state pension by the time they retire.

How is anything related to Brexit, even in the most negative possible outcome, going to have anywhere close to that effect on the life of a young person who graduates this year?

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#293
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who's "we"? I'd be pretty happy about an election legitimising May's leadership. If labour wants to become more competitive they should stop nominating far-left leaders.

> If labour wants to become more competitive they should stop nominating far-left leaders. A party becomes more competitive by moving closer in policy to another party? I'm happy with a far-left leadership, and I'd take it any day over some party vaguely in favour of Keynesianism.

a party becomes more competitive by actually having voters that support it. Very few people are socialists or communists, Labour would have a lot better luck positioning themselves in liberal rather than far-left territory. I currently support the Conservatives because Labour is socialist and Lib Dems are incompetent but I'm really pretty centrist.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#294
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why vote Lib Dem? If the last election turned out slightly differently and the Conservatives still needed the coalition, I bet they'd be out happily singing the praises of Brexit to us all, and walking back their campaign promises. They previously always had a "were not like Labour/Con" cred, but the coalition showed that this simply is not true

You don't understand the Lib Dems if you think we'd have voted for Brexit. Especially under Clegg.

I originally posted a smartass one-liner response ("I don't think even the Lib Dems understand the Lib Dems") but deleted it as it was not constructive or particularly fair on you. I think that it is worth explaining what I meant however.

I genuinely admire that you are motivated enough to get involved with UK politics - and I wish you all the best. You've no idea the disappointment I had in the LDs though - I cheered them on in a handful of successive elections (they ousted the Tories in my home constituency West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine in '97 much to my family's delight) and in the run-in to 2010 was convinced they could rise up to challenge Labour and the Conservatives.

And then to join the Tories - it just boggles the mind, I cannot fathom how anyone didn't think "won't this completely kill us off?". For one this basically lost them the foothold they had Scotland (my home constituency was lost to the SNP, for example) and whatever was left of the younger supporters who weren't turned off by the association with the Conservatives were then burned by the Tuition Fee saga in England.

We'll never know what would have happened with Brexit if the Lib Dems were still in the coalition. But they completely capitulated on a single extremely simple promise in 2010. Now I (a previous Lib Dem voter) have no reason to believe they wouldn't do the exact same again.

But overall, yeah you are right. I do not understand the Lib Dems. And it fucking saddens me.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#295
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why vote Lib Dem? If the last election turned out slightly differently and the Conservatives still needed the coalition, I bet they'd be out happily singing the praises of Brexit to us all, and walking back their campaign promises. They previously always had a "were not like Labour/Con" cred, but the coalition showed that this simply is not true

I really don't get this line of thinking at all. In any coalition compromises are required. Yes the Lib Dems made a campaign promise not to increase tuition fees. But (and this is important), they DID NOT WIN the general election so therefore did not have a strong mandate for those promises. Somehow the Lib Dems get all the blame for increased tuition fees as if it was their idea. The blame for that should lie square…

They campaigned on a promise then bailed on it and the electorate punished them. If you don't get this line of thinking then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Labour Party establishment have tried to dethrone Corbyn before and failed. He's an odd case. He commands a lot of influence among Labour members and to some extent the unions (who have significant ties to and influence on the Labour Party here). This makes him more-or-less untouchable as party leader. However, he's loathed by most of the party's current MPs, who are politicians and know he's going to be a liabil…

How is Corbyn playing political games? He had the overwhelming support of members in two leadership elections. The people playing political games have been those Labour MPs who have been trying to get him to stand down. It's almost as if they'd rather have the Tories in government. Presumably the general public don't like him because the media have been telling them he's unelectable, even though he's been voted leade…

How is Corbyn playing political games?

I suspect he's considering his own position and the general dissatisfaction he faces among his current crop of MPs, and he's probably figuring this is a chance to clean house a bit. I also suspect the extremely short notice given by May is designed to frustrate that effort.

It's almost as if they'd rather have the Tories in government.

I imagine some current Labour MPs with Blairite leanings really might prefer having the Tories in government if a Corbyn-led administration is the alternative. The Tory position on a lot of issues is probably closer to their own.

Presumably the general public don't like him because the media have been telling them he's unelectable, even though he's been voted leader twice and his policies are popular with the electorate even if he isn't.

But being voted leader by a party who like him is far different from getting votes from anyone else, and almost everyone's policies are popular until you start asking the hard questions like how you're going to pay for it or who else is going to lose out as a result. I don't think either the general public's view of him or any resulting electability problems are entirely down to the media.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That not what oversampling means. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/25/oversampling...

I'm aware of what oversampling means. I was listing the 'hidden vote' and oversampling as a reason.

That still makes no sense.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit is more important than college fees.

Brexit is more important than college fees. Is it, really? People say things like this a lot at the moment, but the objective reality is that for a lot of graduates in the current tuition fees and student loans system, they are leaving university already tens of thousands of pounds in debt. Earning anything resembling a "normal" graduate salary -- which of course isn't guaranteed these days -- they will then be makin…

It is. Nationalism is on the march, and with it war won't be far away. We're looking at a disintegration of the Western order and the rise of China and a threat from Russia, and a self-interested USA. I don't think the individual countries of Western Europe have a hope standing alone; they will have their arms twisted and they'll toe someone else's line, like it or not, if they can't band together.

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#299
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If labour wants to become more competitive they should stop nominating far-left leaders. A party becomes more competitive by moving closer in policy to another party? I'm happy with a far-left leadership, and I'd take it any day over some party vaguely in favour of Keynesianism.

a party becomes more competitive by actually having voters that support it. Very few people are socialists or communists, Labour would have a lot better luck positioning themselves in liberal rather than far-left territory. I currently support the Conservatives because Labour is socialist and Lib Dems are incompetent but I'm really pretty centrist.

I currently support Labour because Conservatives have a thing for capitalism, Lib Dems are pushing social democracy as a solution and centrists don't care about it :)

Re: UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold general election

#300
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but if the LibDems can pull enough Blairites away from Corbyn and urban Tories away from May it will give the LibDems a core that they can move forward with. (I don't think they have a hope in hell of actually even getting enough MPs to play kingmakers, but they may be aiming to simply supplant Labour as the opposition party...)

The trouble is, the Lib Dems under Farron have essentially become a single-issue party. That decision potentially alienates about 1/3 of their previous voter base who voted to Leave, as well as those who did want to Remain but either don't believe in overriding a popular referendum on democratic principles or don't feel strongly enough on the issue to disrupt things further. Given that we're talking about the Lib Dem…

Thinking about this more I am convinced Farron is on the right track. The leave/remain issue gives the LibDems an opening to expand and they should take it, there is no future in being 'not nasty enough to vote Tory but not dumb enough to vote Labour' and if both parties are willing to surrender an issue that at one point had the support of 48% of the country (and concentrated in a few areas to make campaigning easier) then you go for it.

Without such a gamble the LibDems will remain in the also-ran group with UKIP and the Greens. You push any issue that gives you a wedge and use it to crack a few ridings and if necessary you write off the 1/3 in the hope of picking up 2/5 of the two larger parties.

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