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Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

nytimes.com

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Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#101

Post by parasubvert »

Clownshoesms wrote: post #72
jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

I agree, I think absolute transparency should be a given with any democratic government. One reason, aside from national security to a hopefully minor degree, is to cover their behinds when stupid things are done (and they're done an awful lot in the public service). I think if we had a crystal-clear/omniscient view of the wastage that goes on in various governments, we'd be collectively appalled.

"I think if we had a crystal-clear/omniscient view of the wastage that goes on in various governments, we'd be collectively appalled."

I think the opposite. Most people already believe the government is incredibly wasteful, there's a much greater opportunity in highlighting where it surprisingly efficient. This will serve to blow up many ideological truisms.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#102

Post by shimon_e »

atmosx wrote: post #76
jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

A bitcoin-type ledger with known account numbers would be great for public offices. Even though you can have a nefarious category like "Office Contractor Expenses" which acts like a black hole but at least there can be some sort of minimal scrutiny.

hmmm... if anyone has any connections to Jared Kushner maybe we could recommend to him to create a blockchain for government budgets under his office of american innovation.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#103

Post by taurath »

akinalci wrote: post #61
taurath wrote: post #10

It sounds pretty great, but I'm very worried about what actually comes out of it given the media landscape. People will use the data in ways that benefit them - even the CBO's reports are highly politicized. If we can't start taking "real, true" data at face value and using it to drive actual policy again, this is just another drop in the bucket.

> but I'm very worried about what actually comes out of it given the media landscape We've seen recently that some people believe what they want to believe, regardless of facts. This doesn't mean the rest of us should be deprived of facts, or that we should throw our hands up and give up on seeking the truth.

Not saying we should give up, but only saying that the truth doesn't matter unless the conditions for it to be useful exist. A Russian bureaucrat kicks your dog? It doesn't matter what the truth is if nothing can come of it.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#104

Post by dingdongding »

WalterBright wrote: post #24

> “How many people work for government in the United States?” he asked, with the excitement of a child showing off a new toy, before displaying the answer. “Almost 24 million." Directly, sure. Indirectly, a lot more. By indirectly, I mean companies that do government contract work.

If you go by that approach then everyone in the society indirectly works for the govt in some way or the other.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#105

Post by peteretep »

propman wrote: post #23

I am definitely very excited about this. Blanket statements like "government is too inefficient and such a waste" or "we need to raise more taxes to fix this problem" are statements that are irrefutable due to the convoluted nature of government. Now we can have a little more insight into what is efficient and what isn't. Also the opaqueness and division of data makes it difficult to make meaningful and economical de…

I think it's optimistic to think that data will sway political opinion in America

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#106

Post by [deleted] »

parasubvert wrote: post #101
Clownshoesms wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I think absolute transparency should be a given with any democratic government. One reason, aside from national security to a hopefully minor degree, is to cover their behinds when stupid things are done (and they're done an awful lot in the public service). I think if we had a crystal-clear/omniscient view of the wastage that goes on in various governments, we'd be collectively appalled.

"I think if we had a crystal-clear/omniscient view of the wastage that goes on in various governments, we'd be collectively appalled." I think the opposite. Most people already believe the government is incredibly wasteful, there's a much greater opportunity in highlighting where it surprisingly efficient. This will serve to blow up many ideological truisms.

[deleted]

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#107

Post by justin66 »

jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

> federal, state, and local levels

(don't forget the counties!)

The reason that cannot work is that when you get below the state level, you're dealing with governments that might or might not have enough money and motivation to do proper accounting, staffed by people who might or might not have actually gone to college.

Mandating they contribute to the "national spreadsheet" would represent an unprecedented imposition on local governments. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, but I'm guessing it's unconstitutional if it comes from the federal government.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#108

Post by grogenaut »

justin66 wrote: post #107
jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

> federal, state, and local levels (don't forget the counties!) The reason that cannot work is that when you get below the state level, you're dealing with governments that might or might not have enough money and motivation to do proper accounting, staffed by people who might or might not have actually gone to college. Mandating they contribute to the "national spreadsheet" would represent an unprecedented impositio…

If they can't track their basic budget how can they be fiscally responsible? Small govt's don't have the luxury of just printing more money.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#109

Post by dragonwriter »

jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

> There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

Except for some things like certain national security parts that are specifically protected by law from detailed disclosure, federal, state, and most local governments make and publish those, though they aren't in the form of spreadsheets, and they aren't consolidated into a single national combined publication.

Re: Steve Ballmer serves up a data trove about government spending in the US

#110

Post by dragonwriter »

justin66 wrote: post #107
jliptzin wrote: post #53

Today I filed my tax return showing all the money that came in and every minute expense required to make that money. Why can't we hold the government to the same standard? There should be one (huge) annual spreadsheet published showing how much money came in (federal, state, and local levels), with a detailed accounting of where every penny went, just like I am required to do for my business to claim deductions.

> federal, state, and local levels (don't forget the counties!) The reason that cannot work is that when you get below the state level, you're dealing with governments that might or might not have enough money and motivation to do proper accounting, staffed by people who might or might not have actually gone to college. Mandating they contribute to the "national spreadsheet" would represent an unprecedented impositio…

> The reason that cannot work is that when you get below the state level, you're dealing with governments that might or might not have enough money and motivation to do proper accounting, staffed by people who might or might not have actually gone to college.

Because of state and federal funding rules, local governments are generally not only already providing detailed public accountings in documents that nobody bothers to read, but also providing detailed reports of their spending and revenue to state and federal authorities (who periodically audit parts of them) as a condition of basic funding. They absolutely can and do track income and expenses at very fine levels, and report them with very fine breakdowns (often different breakdowns of the same spending representing different control agencies demands.)

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