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Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

theguardian.com

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Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#71

Post by Avshalom »

vacri wrote: post #41
anigbrowl wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in coal mines work pretty hard. Are they getting luckier, do you think? This is an absolutely great maxim for people who are fortunate or wise enough to be working on developing their own abilities and position. For the majority of people who are working hard to get paid to pay bills to have life's necessities, but don't have much energy or idea what to do beyond that, it's a cruel joke.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Australia, miners get to use heavy equipment to do what used to be back-breaking labour, and salaries tend to start at twice the national median. Modern miners are not the poorest-of-the-poor picture of yesteryear.

So they're not working hard and they're at the top?

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#72

Post by oceanghost »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

“I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both; and I believe they both get paid in the end; but the fools first.” - Robert Louis Stevenson, Kidnapped

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#73

Post by cashmonkey85 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

That's why when hiring I always say hire the lucky person not the hard worker. You're an idiot if you think it's hard work that explains success of a company. I get applications to role a set of dices and the one that roles the hirest number is hired.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#74

Post by cashmonkey85 »

That's why when hiring I always say hire the lucky person not the hard worker. You're an idiot if you think it's hard work that explains success of a company. I get applications to role a set of dices and the one that roles the hirest number is hired.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#75

Post by anigbrowl »

vacri wrote: post #41
anigbrowl wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in coal mines work pretty hard. Are they getting luckier, do you think? This is an absolutely great maxim for people who are fortunate or wise enough to be working on developing their own abilities and position. For the majority of people who are working hard to get paid to pay bills to have life's necessities, but don't have much energy or idea what to do beyond that, it's a cruel joke.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Australia, miners get to use heavy equipment to do what used to be back-breaking labour, and salaries tend to start at twice the national median. Modern miners are not the poorest-of-the-poor picture of yesteryear.

Brilliant evasion of the point there

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#76

Post by true_religion »

chc wrote: post #58
mindcrime wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While hard work is important, their success was also partially due to luck and the work of others, and they should never forget that. Agreed. My problem is with this meme that seems to have become pervasive over the last year or two, which seems to posit that, effectively, everything comes down to luck. Clearly the actual truth is somewhere between the extremes of "it's all luck" and "it's all hard work". My response…

I think the thing is that the luck is much more make-or-break than the work. Luck can make how much work you've done irrelevant, but no amount of work can make luck irrelevant. For example, the "cash me ousside" girl didn't do any work, but now is more successful than I am by sheer weird luck. Meanwhile, lots of people have put in stupendous amounts of work and still ended up with bad results just because they were u…

You have to both be prepared to take advantage of a lucky opportunity and be ready to work hard to maximize it. Doing neither means failure.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#77

Post by tajen »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #53
tajen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my problem: > My mother gave birth to 12 children Having 12 children is completely out of responsibility. Yet we saved this guy from poverty. Now what, not only the guy is barely thankful, but he claims that people should be able to reproduce this error and get the same incredibly good outcome – and it's a right? What about no? He shows no understanding of what is normal; Growing from 12th-child of farmer pare…

Non-Western cultures and Catholics both have a bias towards large families. As a survival strategy, it often makes perfect sense in those different cultural settings. >The XXI century is stuck in a wrong expectation that governments are supposed to compensate for your parents' life choices. No, it's really not. "Choices" are a luxury, not a given. You need a good education and a personal or family tradition of resear…

> objective, rational, research

I'm often surprised how "objective, rational, research" can be biased by the author. For example, "objective, rational, research" lead to not demonstrating that women are paid less if they perform equal work (degree, interest in tech, but also number of extra hours at work), but "objective, rational, research"-people regularly and repeatedly refuse to discuss or even listen to such stats, because they're not "objective, rational, research" according to them. So if you leftist people agreed to question your own "objective, rational, research" that shows that leftist people are right, maybe we could hear each other.

Maybe that leads to a world where those who annoy their friends at school have no job when they're an adult. And that's how it should be, even if "objective, rational, research" show that "oh the poor boy he beats up his friends because [insert whatever family reason here]".

Note that I've given thousands to charities and helped minorities until my thirties. Until one of them raped my daughter-in-law. No matter how you try, even if you put them on a highway of priorities above normal people, those are their own top enemy. A bit of fairness towards former-normal people would be nice as well.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#78

Post by vacri »

anigbrowl wrote: post #75
vacri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Australia, miners get to use heavy equipment to do what used to be back-breaking labour, and salaries tend to start at twice the national median. Modern miners are not the poorest-of-the-poor picture of yesteryear.

Brilliant evasion of the point there

I was just suggesting you update your mental image of coal miners from the 1950s to the 21st century.

I remember one politician here a couple of years ago defending miners in his electorate as 'battlers' (aussie slang for poor who are trying to make ends meet)... and at a time when the national median wage was $57k and median household income was $77k, the 'battler' he was defending made $110k...

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#79

Post by majewsky »

tracker1 wrote: post #67
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

Almost every successful person I'm aware of is very driven... now, there's luck involved as well.. but it's a combination. As the song goes[0]: This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6hpVHx6QCw

That is certainly true, but survivorship bias still is a thing: Just because every successful person is hard-working, doesn't mean by any stretch that every hard-working person is successful.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#80

Post by kamaal »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

>>selling a dangerous idea: that nothing you do matters at all, and, ergo, you might as well do nothing. I mean, if hard work doesn't matter, why bother working hard to begin with, right?

You must work hard and contribute only to a system that is fair.

Its important to starve that system of good contributors which doesn't reward merit.

One of the reason why people immigrate to other countries, or move companies is because of futility of doing anything in their current ecosystem.

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