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Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

theguardian.com

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Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#61

Post by user5994461 »

dikdik wrote: post #37
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

I think a better way to frame this is "Hard work barely matters when you work for someone else." I've been in too many situations and witnessed too many friends and family members that shoot for the moon but are never able to leave Earth as all their extra efforts are usurped by their managers and business owners. Sure hard work "matters", it can help you get places, but how much does it matter is the question? Does…

Well, that's another interesting topic for discussion.

Don't work harder if that will give you no returns. (like unpaid extra hours, going to your company funds or manager bonus for saving the project)

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#62

Post by user5994461 »

sp332 wrote: post #6
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

There are two really big problems with this outlook. First if everyone achieves a high level education, the competition for high skilled jobs also goes up, making the higher education mean less and requiring further education to beat the crowd. This is something millennials are experiencing right now. Second, if employers take more risk and hire more people from underprivileged backgrounds, it just means that someone…

The job market isn't static like that. If there are lots of highly educated people, there will be new jobs created to take advantage of their skills. There might be more competition or there might not be, and it's definitely not a linear correlation.

>>> If there are lots of highly educated people, there will be new jobs created to take advantage of their skills.

No. Just no. That is utterly wrong.

The job market goes by itself. It has little correlation with education prospects (that takes 5 years for any change to make new student anyway).

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#63

Post by user5994461 »

bunburying wrote: post #49

Interesting to compare and contrast American and European attitudes toward social mobility [1]. Apparently Americans are far more likely than Europeans to believe that hard work gets you to the top. However, these expectations are apparently quite divorced from reality. Apparently hard work is far more likely to get you to the top in Europe (especially continental Europe) than in the US. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.or…

Depends where you are.

Europe and USA are large continents, comprised of many environments and sub cultures.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#64

Post by notacoward »

mcbruiser3 wrote: post #47
011235813213455 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that make him a terrible writer?

because his message is unclear, clearly. even smart people on HN seems to be confused about his message. a good writer is not confusing.

> even smart people on HN seems to be confused about his message

I see no evidence of that.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#65

Post by clock_tower »

munchbunny wrote: post #51
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

Rather than nitpick on the wording, I think you should try to see the underlying point. It's unfortunate phrasing, but the point isn't about how hard you work or whether it's important to have a good work ethic. I liked this article better, and it conveys more or less the same point as the topic link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/opinion/how-i-learned-to-... The problem is that hard work makes a dent, but not a…

This is either a nitpick of your post, or a complete agreement with it, but I'm not sure which: "work ethic" or "Protestant ethic", in Weber's original understanding, had three parts: hard work, deferred consumption, and reinvestment. Using "have a good work ethic" to mean "work hard", without the other two elements, is a good way to stay poor -- which is to say, a good way to fail to understand how to play the game, in the way you mention. More accurate sociology would probably mean more upward social mobility.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#66

Post by bherms »

mindcrime wrote: post #55
bherms wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more likely that the original commenter probably didn't actually read the article and just had a reaction to the title.

No, I read and understood the article. If I'm guilty of anything, it's reacting to more than just what this article is saying. But it strikes me as just one more in a long series of articles / essays / comments that have emerged over the past few years which, collectively, are promoting a message that denigrates the value of hard work and suggest that pretty much everything comes down to luck.

Yeah I agree that there have been a lot of articles that basically approach the topic (which I thoroughly believe in, that it's not just hard work that gets you to the top) with the tone of "hard work doesn't matter". I thought this one was good though.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#67

Post by tracker1 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #8
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

Almost every successful person I'm aware of is very driven... now, there's luck involved as well.. but it's a combination.

As the song goes[0]:

    This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
    Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6hpVHx6QCw

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#68

Post by tracker1 »

alasdair_ wrote: post #28
wavefunction wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." Funnily enough the moon is much closer than the stars. ;) I think success is a matter of preparation, opportunity/luck and 'hard work' in the form of dedication when the opportunity presents itself.

>>"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." >Funnily enough the moon is much closer than the stars. ;) Sure but if you MISS the moon, you'll be stuck heading towards the stars until you run of of oxygen and die. That's the point of this saying, right? ...

This totally reminds me of the scene in "The Expanse" series that showed the test run of an engine that allowed broader exploration of the solar system...

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#69

Post by clock_tower »

wnevets wrote: post #29

The most common way to get to the top is being born at the top.

That's true -- but the top is a harder place to stay at than you think. China, the West, and the Middle East all have variations of "from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations"; most fortunes don't last past the grandchildren of the people who earned them -- and this was even true under feudalism, where new titles had to be continually granted, and the fourth generation after the man who was first granted arms was hardly ever armigerous, if it existed at all.

The few who make it past the third generation, generally continue on indefinitely (the Roosevelts, who bought a 40-acre farm on Manhattan Island in the 1600s and still own it today, should come to mind; likewise the Rothschilds and Rockefellers in more recent times); but getting over that three-generation hurdle is a formidable task.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#70

Post by omonra »

"My mother gave birth to 12 children. I arrived in London at the age of nine, speaking practically no English. I attended some of the worst performing schools in inner-city London and was raised exclusively on state benefits. Many years later I was lucky enough to attend Oxford on a full scholarship for my postgraduate degree. Now as a barrister I am a lifetime member of The Honourable Society of Lincoln’s Inn."

This...is....mind-boggling. Instead of being grateful to the host country which has given him so much he finds it necessary to moan that other people of similar circumstance don't have the same chances to succeed in this country as the existing elites?

And then people wonder why the natives are tired of accepting more of the same?

Btw, I'm in a similar situation myself (except that my mother didn't come from a society where people have 12 kids) - came as a penniless immigrant to the West, achieved a fair measure of success. But I happen to be grateful and appreciative instead of whine that a children of illiterate immigrants have worse chances at success than the middle classes.

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