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Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

theguardian.com

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Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#41

Post by vacri »

anigbrowl wrote: post #18
sergiotapia wrote: post #12

"The harder I work the luckier I get." comes to mind.

People in coal mines work pretty hard. Are they getting luckier, do you think? This is an absolutely great maxim for people who are fortunate or wise enough to be working on developing their own abilities and position. For the majority of people who are working hard to get paid to pay bills to have life's necessities, but don't have much energy or idea what to do beyond that, it's a cruel joke.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Australia, miners get to use heavy equipment to do what used to be back-breaking labour, and salaries tend to start at twice the national median. Modern miners are not the poorest-of-the-poor picture of yesteryear.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#42

Post by kafkaesq »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all.

Which isn't what the author was saying, of course.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#43

Post by happypants23 »

chippy wrote: post #3

> What I have learned in this short period of time is that the pervasive narrative of “if you work hard you will get on” is a complete myth. It’s not true and we need stop saying it. This is because “working hard, and doing the right thing” barely gets you to the starting line The author misses the point. It's true that only saying “if you work hard you will get on” is not enough. But it's only half the picture - wor…

I don't think the author missed the mark. He does elaborate on the other factors, such as social adaption:

> I don’t see this mindset shifting, so my advice to youngsters has remained: you need to adapt yourself. You need to find the right way to speak to different people, at different times in different contexts. This is not compromising who you are, but rather adapting to the relevant surroundings.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#44

Post by rockstartech »

graedus wrote: post #40
frooxie wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we tell people the dangerous false idea that hard work is the main factor that makes someone rich or successful, we could end up with a terrible society where the rich feel they have no responsibility to help the less fortunate (by e.g. providing universal healthcare), because they must simply have been lazy – even though most rich people started out rich, and even the rich people who started out poor and worked h…

> we could end up with a terrible society where the rich feel they have no responsibility to help the less fortunate (by e.g. providing universal healthcare), because they must simply have been lazy I completely agree with you, but it's curious that you frame this as a hypothetical outcome. At least in the US, this idea has been deeply ingrained in broad swaths of the population for decades - and not just among the r…

I was going to make this point as well. Even in the responses to this article we can very clearly see a desire to defend the American meritocracy myth.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#45

Post by dbg31415 »

Is "the top" the goal? Shouldn't be for every child. Telling every child they can reach "the top" is a lie.

I grew up in a very poor part of the country, certainly bottom 5%. And eventually paid my own way through an Ivy League school... I would say that the lessons my dad taught me were solid.

1) It's important to work hard. You don't work hard to get ahead... you work hard so you are satisfied that you gave it your all. Take pride in your accomplishments -- however small. Work until you're happy with what you have done.

2) Be careful what you wish for -- what you choose to dedicate your life to doing is important, but know that luck plays a huge role. You can't count on luck, but you can be immensely thankful for it and humble accepting it.

3) The world is yours to make what you will out of it. You're the only one who can determine what is right for you. Nobody is better than you are, but you're no better than anyone else -- stand up for yourself, and be kind to those you run into along the way.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#46

Post by notacoward »

mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

The strawman is yours. The author clearly does not believe or say that hard work doesn't matter at all. That's obvious to anyone who actually read it instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to the title and not even bothering to quote-mine before responding. All he's saying is that hard work is only one factor, and that others must be addressed for that hard work to earn its just reward.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#47

Post by mcbruiser3 »

011235813213455 wrote: post #32
mcbruiser3 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he's a terrible writer then.

How does that make him a terrible writer?

because his message is unclear, clearly. even smart people on HN seems to be confused about his message. a good writer is not confusing.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#48

Post by mikestew »

sergiotapia wrote: post #12

"The harder I work the luckier I get." comes to mind.

Hmm, seems to work the opposite for me. Baling hay, one of the most demanding jobs I've ever had: a bit over minimum wage. Writing software, where my ping pong sessions are occasionally interrupted by work that involves sitting at a desk: fat stacks of Benjamins.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#49

Post by bunburying »

Interesting to compare and contrast American and European attitudes toward social mobility [1].

Apparently Americans are far more likely than Europeans to believe that hard work gets you to the top.

However, these expectations are apparently quite divorced from reality. Apparently hard work is far more likely to get you to the top in Europe (especially continental Europe) than in the US.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_t...

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#50

Post by bherms »

mcbruiser3 wrote: post #47
011235813213455 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that make him a terrible writer?

because his message is unclear, clearly. even smart people on HN seems to be confused about his message. a good writer is not confusing.

Seems more likely that the original commenter probably didn't actually read the article and just had a reaction to the title.
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