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The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

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Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#61

Post by hkmurakami »

tw04 wrote: post #57
hkmurakami wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am guessing that you are not familiar with the inefficiency of agricultural land ownership regulation in Japan? Start by making it easier for corporations to own farmland and improve the per area output of the relatively little flat land that the country has (Japan is 73% mountainous[1]) Corporate involvement in agriculture is restricted by the Agricultural Land Law and related laws. Joint stock companies are permi…

Remind me again how allowing large corporate entities to own farmland improves farm output over allowing farmers who... you know... farm to own the land. In the US, corporate farms = animal abuse, complete indifference to pollution, and a general lack of accountability to the communities the farms are a part of. Furthermore, it has decimated rural communities across the US.

Please allow me to conjecture that you have an overly idealized view of the state of Japan's "microfarm" agricultural makeup. I encourage you to read my citations in the GP post.

some excerpts:

Losing Farmland That Is Essential to Food Security

Of the 2.5 million hectares of farmland that Japan has lost over the past 50 years-equivalent to the total area of rice paddies in Japan today-about half has been converted for residential or industrial use.

...

The end result of this situation is that town halls, pachinko parlors, and other buildings are constructed in the middle of rice fields, leaving Japan's farmland riddled with holes like a moth-eaten dress. Developments like this not only do nothing to lower costs by enabling farmers to consolidate; they even block the sun from surrounding farmland.

France has secured its farmland resources by clearly delineating urban areas from agricultural areas through zoning and by limiting the benefits of agricultural policies to full-time farmers who derive at least half of their income from farming and expend at least half of their labor in farming, thus actively concentrating farmland in the hands of these farmers. These policies have enabled France to raise its food self-sufficiency ratio from 99% to 122% and the average size of its farms from 17 hectares to 52 hectares (as of 2005).

(note: you can collect your farmer's subsidy by being a "part time" farmer and using your land very unproductively. Productivity doesn't matter to these people since they just want to hit the bare minimum requirement to get their handout. My own maternal grandfather was one such part time farmer -- though not as unproductive as some.)

The Issue of Corporate Involvement

Farmers' groups strongly oppose the acquisition of farmland by joint stock companies, claiming that it would encourage land speculation. It is not joint stock companies but farmers themselves, however, who have profited by converting half of the 2.5 million hectares of lost farmland to other uses-equivalent to the total area of rice paddies in Japan today.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#62

Post by mikekchar »

Barrin92 wrote: post #23
zeroer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess as a democratic state they can decide to restrict imports. But then don't ask anybody to give two shits that that there's a shortage.

Well in this case it's Bloomberg and not the Japanese people. I guess a people who can keep composure in face of a nuclear meltdown and tsunami won't exactly lose their minds over a few weeks of potato chip shortage.

Good grief. We went nearly 2 years without me ever seeing butter on the shelves. Shortages happen here.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#63

Post by tw04 »

hkmurakami wrote: post #61
tw04 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remind me again how allowing large corporate entities to own farmland improves farm output over allowing farmers who... you know... farm to own the land. In the US, corporate farms = animal abuse, complete indifference to pollution, and a general lack of accountability to the communities the farms are a part of. Furthermore, it has decimated rural communities across the US.

Please allow me to conjecture that you have an overly idealized view of the state of Japan's "microfarm" agricultural makeup. I encourage you to read my citations in the GP post. some excerpts: Losing Farmland That Is Essential to Food Security Of the 2.5 million hectares of farmland that Japan has lost over the past 50 years-equivalent to the total area of rice paddies in Japan today-about half has been converted fo…

You still haven't explained how corporate ownership is a solution. The problem you describe is farmland being converted - OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use. That doesn't require corporate ownership, and corporate ownership doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#64

Post by mikekchar »

Pitarou wrote: post #43
emodendroket wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, as your post seems to be recommending, such regulations were abolished, Japanese farmers would pretty much cease to exist because of their inability to compete with cheaper imports. Maybe you consider that an unacceptable tradeoff for some potato chip shortages but it's not clear that the Japanese share your sense of priorities.

It‘s not as simple as that. Japan‘s agricultural system was intended to be a temporary prop, to help agriculture recover after the War. The people would experience inflated prices and erratic supplies, but that was thought a price worth paying. The system has been kept in place for decades longer than its stated purpose required. The forces that keep it in place are powerful, and democratic only in the loosest sense…

But nothing in Japan is really ever temporary. Once it's in place, it takes something pretty major to move it out of place.

And for the record, I don't think it was ever intended to be a temporary measure. The whole reason a million people died of hunger after WWII was because there was no local production of food. And not only that, there was no centralised food distribution system, so even when food became available, there was no way to get it to people.

Nobody that I know of complains about about the agricultural system here (granted, I live in a farming community :-) ). The only people I see complaining are people with foreign interests who want to dump their produce in order to destroy production in other places in the world (as a Canadian, I will say that our country has historically been one of the worst in the world for this).

The biggest problem is really that all of the farmers are dying of old age and nobody in their families want to continue, so I suspect that the "pretty major" thing will probably happen sooner rather than later. I feel strangely thankful to Trump for killing TPP so that the solution is less likely to be selling out to foreign interests.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#65

Post by emodendroket »

Pitarou wrote: post #47
emodendroket wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually what he said is that regulation is "primarily responsible" for the shortage, which seems contentious -- what about the failed crops, after all -- but it seems to me that he probably had some motivation for saying that beyond pedantry.

Is this more to your liking then: Japan is peculiarly vulnerable to potato shortages because it restricts imports, even when its own potato crop fails.

Ok, sure. But there is currently a shortage of lettuce going on in the supermarkets here despite a liberalized trade regime. It's not a panacea.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#66

Post by Safety1stClyde »

tw04 wrote: post #63
hkmurakami wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to conjecture that you have an overly idealized view of the state of Japan's "microfarm" agricultural makeup. I encourage you to read my citations in the GP post. some excerpts: Losing Farmland That Is Essential to Food Security Of the 2.5 million hectares of farmland that Japan has lost over the past 50 years-equivalent to the total area of rice paddies in Japan today-about half has been converted fo…

You still haven't explained how corporate ownership is a solution. The problem you describe is farmland being converted - OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use. That doesn't require corporate ownership, and corporate ownership doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.

> OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use.

Japan already has such laws. They simply circumvent them and build more and more seven-elevens on agricultural land.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#67

Post by nmerouze »

nemasu wrote: post #59
nmerouze wrote: post #8

Agriculture in Japan is very under-developed. You add the import restrictions and it leads to produce being twice as expensive (if not more) than most western countries. It also means lack of variety. And organic products are rare. Shortages are a thing bound to happen. I was hoping for TPP to be accepted, but now I am just going to leave the country.

Most western countries? I find the produce, especially if it's in season, is much cheaper than the produce in Canada, and it's fresher too. Food in the United States is ridiculously inexpensive.

I lived in many European countries and all are cheaper. Same for the US. Canada might be an exception but the time I spent there (Vancouver), produce was cheaper than Japan (I live in Osaka).

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#68

Post by emodendroket »

Safety1stClyde wrote: post #66
tw04 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still haven't explained how corporate ownership is a solution. The problem you describe is farmland being converted - OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use. That doesn't require corporate ownership, and corporate ownership doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.

> OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use. Japan already has such laws. They simply circumvent them and build more and more seven-elevens on agricultural land.

How is corporate ownership going to solve that problem? If anything I think it'd worsen it because a large corporate holder is going to be far more adept at skirting the regulations.

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#69

Post by hkmurakami »

tw04 wrote: post #63
hkmurakami wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please allow me to conjecture that you have an overly idealized view of the state of Japan's "microfarm" agricultural makeup. I encourage you to read my citations in the GP post. some excerpts: Losing Farmland That Is Essential to Food Security Of the 2.5 million hectares of farmland that Japan has lost over the past 50 years-equivalent to the total area of rice paddies in Japan today-about half has been converted fo…

You still haven't explained how corporate ownership is a solution. The problem you describe is farmland being converted - OK, pass a law stating certain areas of farmland cannot be converted to any other use. That doesn't require corporate ownership, and corporate ownership doesn't fix the problem, it makes it worse.

Japan has a farmland abandonment problem due to elderly farmers retiring and their children not wanting to become farmers. There are documentaries, news articles, and even segments on prime time TV shows chronicling some of these families trying to bring in an "adopted son" from cities. Such a personal commitment, naturally, is a detriment for many.　Here is some demographic data published in a general public facing article by the Ministry of Agriculture [1]

Corporate ownership allows for legal structures and arrangements that introduces flexibility into this traditionally all-or-nothing arrangement. [2]

Also, corporate ownership structures allow farm operators to pool the risk and capital requirements of a larger scale operation. Business loans that limit personal liability in the event of insolvency is greatly preferable to personal loans when undertaking expansion and improvement towards the preexisting operation.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me how corporate ownership of farmland by virtue of corporate ownership alone would reduce land productivity, as you have asserted. While I certainly agree that factory farming methods have created problems with antibacterial and hormonal health, greenhouse gas production, etc., I have a difficultly seeing how such abusive practices would decrease land productivity, separate from the other problems they cause.

[1] http://www.maff.go.jp/j/pr/aff/1207/spe1_02.html

[2] "Creating Jobs Through the Specified Corporation Lease Program" http://www.tokyofoundation.org/en/articles/2008/let-corporat...

Re: The Great Japan Potato-Chip Crisis

#70

Post by kijin »

emodendroket wrote: post #60
kijin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The regulations can be changed without putting domestic farmers out of business. For example, they could add tariffs to imported potatoes to make them cost as much as (or even more than) domestic potatoes, and use the revenue to help Hokkaido farmers rebuild their farms. No need for a hard limit on the imported amount.

True enough, although I'd think that by the time such a huge overhaul were accomplished the shortage would be over.

If there is political will, things like that can be done remarkably quickly.

South Korea had a massive shortage of chicken eggs last winter due to an avian influenza epidemic. It took only a few weeks for the government to start importing fresh eggs from abroad, something that had never been done before. It wasn't enough to get prices down to normal levels, but at least the government acted quick -- especially considering that the nation was in the middle of a Presidential scandal.

Unlike South Korea, Japan is essentially a single-party dictatorship. They can pass whatever laws they deem necessary if they really want to. I'm assuming that they don't want to, probably because there's someone who profits from high potato prices.

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