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Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

johnhawks.net

41–49 of 49 posts

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#41

One quibble that I didn't see addressed but possibly overlooked: who chooses who is considered a scientist worthy of getting the initial block of $$ in the first place? There will still need to be an application for that status at some point.

I was wondering the same. In https://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.1067.pdf they say "chosen according to some criteria like academic appointment status or recent research productivity".

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#42

Crucial question whose answer I didn't catch while reading the articles: how do you determine who is considered a "scientist"?

I was wondering the same. In https://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.1067.pdf they say "chosen according to some criteria like academic appointment status or recent research productivity".

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#43
I don't see how this will not lead to - rich gets richer - phenomenon. Scientists who have highly cited papers are by definition already well established (full professors in tier 1 institutes who are already well-funded or might be occupying an endowed chair position). Do they really need tons of grant money to do further research? As per this scheme, they will be the ones getting the share of grant money.

And currently scientists in academic institutions are already giving more than 50% of their grant money as overhead cost to the institution.

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#44
I agree with the posts that this would just give more to jerks who game the system. Although what if there was just equal distribution. You could form coalitions for more resources or you could just use the small amount for exploratory research. Get 10 people together for a large grant 100 for a mega grant. This collaboration is required regardless if you want larger grants.

I would like to see a small pool of grant money go out like this. Or maybe the lower scored but not grant winning get 1/10th allocation with no requirements to do a small scale study or act as a bridge.

Imagine how amazing technology could be if we swapped the war budget with the health and science budgets.

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#45
post #4

If you want to pull together a bunch of money for a large experiment, you're still going to have to write documentation to argue your case, and spend lots of time arguing that case. Continued funding will require perennial marketing to your peers. It democratizes science funding, but as in pure democracy, it forces each citizen to spend much of her day at the forum. My related pet hack: Give researchers a shareholdin…

If you just shorted everything you'd come of pretty good on average.

The way this would work out is that you win very small amounts when correctly shorting, but lose big amounts for incorrectly shorting. Shorting everything would work out to a small overall loss.

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#46
post #4

If you want to pull together a bunch of money for a large experiment, you're still going to have to write documentation to argue your case, and spend lots of time arguing that case. Continued funding will require perennial marketing to your peers. It democratizes science funding, but as in pure democracy, it forces each citizen to spend much of her day at the forum. My related pet hack: Give researchers a shareholdin…

If you just shorted everything you'd come of pretty good on average.

[deleted]

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#47

They should require that who the fund get disbursed from, and to, and the amounts, be part of the public record. The quality of results, and year-after-year funding to the original researches (the ones who selected who the disbursement goes to) should be related to the success of the research. This would massively crowd-source successful grant creation, and make the market into a winners market. The record would make…

Wouldn't it be better to make the donation piece more like a secret ballot, i.e. make it hard for anyone to find out whom a given scientist funded? That would make quid pro quo arrangements less likely because one party wouldn't be able to determine if the other stuck to the agreement or cheated.

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#48
post #3

>Allocating money on the condition that some must be given to other researchers would create several downstream benefits. Scientists who maximize the ability of other scientists to produce their own new and useful results would have a big advantage in this system. Jerks would be punished appropriately. Feels too naive to me - jerks in powerful posts will be rewarded by this system. If I know you sit on the committee…

Damn, I'm a tenured professor and reading through the comments it seems like I'm the only one who thinks this is a good idea at some level. The reasons I think it probably wouldn't work are things I haven't seen anyone mention, though.

This is really not too different from the current system, except for one critical thing, which is that instead of decisions being based on nepotistic review panels, they're based on everyone. So this has the benefit of everyone getting funding, and decisions on who to fund based on some highly democratized process rather than the old boys club.

The issue you're raising is important, but making funding decisions totally anonymous would help. Of course, I don't know that you could make it totally anonymous, and what you're suggesting would still be an issue, but anonymity would go a long way. Also, the thing you're suggesting would probably still happen anyway even in today's system.

The problem in my mind is deciding who gets to participate in the system. Everyone who's a tenured professor? Tenure-track? What disciplines? My guess is this would just shift the funding decision from a per-project issue to a per-researcher issue.

My favorite idea for remedying the current process is to randomize rewards. That is, everyone above the median gets thrown into a pool and everyone has X% chance of being funded.

Also, I'd like to see "term limits" and more randomization of review panels. Make it more akin to jury duty, where, if an institution receives federal funding, their researchers are all put into a pool, and review panels are randomly selected for fixed periods of time.

Finally, indirect costs need to be eliminated, sharply curtailed, or reorganized to require explicit justification. Republicans are finally drawing attention to this, and they're right: it's slush funding. Universities wouldn't give as much of a crap about funding if it weren't a profit margin for them.

Re: Should we move to a system where every scientist gives grant money away?

#49
Why so many complex suggestions when we have not shown that any system is better than the lottery approach. Unless you can show that your grant allocation system is better than a random number generator why should we use anything else other than dice.
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