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How many jobs really require college?

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Re: How many jobs really require college?

#271

Post by lazerwalker »

user5994461 wrote: post #239
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you teaching people at all? If you hire professionals they either know what you need already, or you tell them "We use X. Go and learn X." There are remote-only outfits, and they do fine - at least as well "We're not getting any work done because we're in an open plan office and we can't hear ourselves think" outfits. But hiring policy is an issue, and so is PM. It needs people with a compatible attitude, and…

How are you supposed to onboard people onto a project? with training and teaching. What do you professionals do? They work with other professionals and progress with each other. What do you do with the world class experts you have? Make them work with other world class experts to make the impossible possible. Again, lots of collaboration and interactions needed! For anything non trivial or not explained by a stack ov…

By your reasoning, open source projects should never be able to onboard new contributors or maintainers.

You seem to be suggesting that "collaboration" and "interactions" are things that necessarily can only happen synchronously and via richer media than text. Even if you want to move away from OSS as an example, I'd point towards the centuries of intellectual discussion that took place via hand-written snail mail letters.

Is in-person communication faster? No question. Is it the only way to effectively communicate ideas as part of a two-sided discussion? I should hope not.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#272

Post by anymouse- »

tl;dr I should have been able to get a 4 year degree after taking 3-4 classes. Why do people who have equivalent education need to _waste_ 4 years of their life?

I think that the largest problem is that there is no way for people who have achieved the equivalent or more of a college education to gain the same recognition. But possibly that is just because it affects me directly.

While working a technician type job for years with lots of downtime, I studied CS at home and with my work downtime. I took lots of the free courses from the elite universities and finished them. I read lots of good book, most of the No Starch Press books, and did all the exercises. Then I had the money to fund a four year degree, with high expectations for the higher level classes I persisted through the absolutely painfully trivial, tedious work. I got anxious about wasting so much time not learning, after I was not just out of high school.

I've burnt out on busywork, started neglecting schoolwork for stuff that actually improved my skill, or to drill way deeper into some interesting bit of a class than needed to get to something challenging. I ignored school for side projects that stretched my legs. It really hit when I took 300-400 level courses and realized that i really wouldn't learn anything CS at all. I've even helped nearly 10 other students learn Python which the school doesn't even teach pair programming with them on a very non-trivial project.

But now here I am, way more advanced and capable than a standard graduate, terrible GPA, not going to graduate, and no job opportunities. I don't even care how much I make, I like programming, I like making things, I like solving problems. Probably going to have to go back to what I was doing.

That said I did pick up a couple math tricks, but _wasting_ 4 years of my life for 3-4 good classes which could have been taken in 3 months, not even remotely worth it.

Been here for a while but using a throwaway for obvious reasons.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#273

Post by Baeocystin »

JDiculous wrote: post #175
k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

It's not "intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do" that enables one to successfully work remotely, it's enough discipline to do one's job outside of an office setting. I myself try to hire for devs that don't need supervision because we're all adults here and being a nanny isn't something I'm interested in. I prefer trusting others to do their work in a timely manner, and if that trust is broken, we move on.

This is a conversation I've had many times over the years. I've come to the conclusion that other than as a very cursory skills check, interviews are best performed simply as a test to see how well you get along with a person.

The first few weeks will tell you if they're going to work out or not, and if not, it's better for all involved to move on quickly. They will either perform their duties as an adult, which includes working without constant oversight, or they won't. And if they can't do so, out they go before the probationary period is over, because you can't train someone to care.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#274

Post by Baeocystin »

sotojuan wrote: post #264
user5994461 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about time zones. US east to US west is 3 hours. It's fine. When there are people in Europe, Asia, Russia, Australia, it gets a lot harder. The criticism is more about working across time difference than just remote. P.S. Mentoring is always required, unless you only hire the most experienced people you can find. Communication is always required, unless you work on trivial problems. Out of curiosity, what do…

Then saying "remote doesn't work" is unhelpful. How about "remote doesn't work when it's across different continents"?

Even then, there are exceptions. I (in California) am currently working on a small project with a couple guys in Australia. Between the three of us, there are eyes on the servers 24/7 without needing to worry about getting woken up in the middle of the night, and there's always someone available to answer questions from our clients. It's great.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#275

Post by BoysenberryPi »

user5994461 wrote: post #215
chronic331 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any other proof than your single anectdotal evidence? No?

How about you provide proof that it works instead? Prove me that you can have a conversation with someone who's 8+ hours away and sleeping when you are awake. Prove me that you can teach someone over the phone to use a python profiler, knowing he's never used a profiler before. (That's one of the thing I had to do last week).

Why would you use a phone? Use Skype screen share or something of that nature so you can direct what they are doing. This situation you propose doesn't even make sense.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#276

Post by dsacco »

mynameishere wrote: post #193
GCA10 wrote: post #42

Lots of interesting ideas here, but also some wacky or condescending assumptions about other people's lines of work. Let's take two: TRUCK DRIVERS: They don't just move big rigs around. They also need to keep detailed log books, plan out routes, pass inspections -- and know how to talk civilly and constructively to DOT inspectors. An eighth grade education will not get you there. Especially on the last part. The back…

Far from needing a college degree, financial advisors benefit from the unique professional advantage of not needing to exist.

Let me guess - you think financial advisors aren't worth their fees, and their jobs are entirely obviated by index funds with sensible portfolio allocations. Is that about the sum of it?

Everyone who agrees with you already nodded to themselves in agreement and scrolled on. No one who doesn't already agree with your just-so statement was persuaded to consider a different perspective. You came into a conversation about the professional merits of education and used a passing comment about financial advisors to inject your ideology.

So what'd we achieve? What's this all been for?

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#278

Post by Neliquat »

aphextron wrote: post #257
rnd33 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but regardless of whether you think that is a good or bad thing it's part of the value of a college degree, and should be included in your calculation when you decide if college is worth it. I've seen the insecurity of some of my colleges without degrees, almost like they think college is a mystical place where deep and unique knowledge is shared. That insecurity can really cripple your career.

> That insecurity can really cripple your career. I struggled with it daily as a self taught developer working at a large company. I eventually dropped out of the workforce and went back to school because of it. I feel pretty awkward now as a 30 something in class with freshman, but the satisfaction and confidence of having that piece of paper seems worth it to me.

Just realizing the paper is not the change might be a cheaper solution to what amounts to a psychologocal issue.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#279

Post by Neliquat »

GCA10 wrote: post #140
zumu wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trucking companies rightfully insist on a high school degree... Not sure about these days, but ~10 years ago, my friend's family's company did not require a high school degree. To your point, however, I know this because he specifically complained about dealing with under educated employees. From some rudimentary googling, it seems requiring a HS degree is the norm, but there are plenty of cases of forgoing the deg…

Thanks for the extra info. It's almost worth a whole 'nother thread on the pros/cons of the GED and other high-school equivalency programs. Economics Nobel laureate James Hickman has done some big studies here. If I remember right, he found that the GED was a good way of recognizing sound minds that had been too stormy to finish high school (prison population in particular), but that the social issues that limited so…

Oddly, the standards for the GED are almost always much higher than those for a hs degree. The real issues are the 'christian homeschool' degree mills. I understand many states still make their graduates take the GED for that reason.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#280

Post by Neliquat »

dsacco wrote: post #276
mynameishere wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far from needing a college degree, financial advisors benefit from the unique professional advantage of not needing to exist.

Let me guess - you think financial advisors aren't worth their fees, and their jobs are entirely obviated by index funds with sensible portfolio allocations. Is that about the sum of it? Everyone who agrees with you already nodded to themselves in agreement and scrolled on. No one who doesn't already agree with your just-so statement was persuaded to consider a different perspective. You came into a conversation abou…

Problem is, like used car salesmen, lawyers and mechanics, they are a useful, if not nessarry people in many cases, but are also in a unique position to fuck you. A good one is worth their weight and then some. The extremes make for most public perception, and here we are.
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