How many jobs really require college? • Hacker News Board

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#161

Post by woodruffw » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #148

woodruffw wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual dishonesty would be denying it. I make no such denial - I have rejected this person's writings because I can't find any reason to believe that this person entertains discussion (or even the idea of discussion) in good faith. I do not do this out of hand, or on a whim. I've read this person's writings before, and have made a genuine attempt to read him charitably. > its always about silencing or shunning…

Your actions contradict your words though. None of what this guy said about education matters to you because ideas from "this kind of person" is the overwhelming factor to you. Who cares if he has a point about college if he doesnt towe the feminist line, basically.

My actions are commensurate with my words. I don't ask that he be censored - I ask that his status as an intellectual hack be considered, and that we recognize that his writings on education are informed by his much more onerous positions.

We don't debate round-earth denialists, since we know that their only motive in debate is to maximize their audience and legitimacy. It doesn't matter whether they're actually talking about their ungrounded views in a particular instance, because all that matters is that they gain legitimacy to be spent later.

You're the one who keeps bringing up feminism and social justice, not me. Have you considered that you're trying to imply an ulterior motive that doesn't exist? Every movement has its fair share of people just like Devin Helton.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#162

Post by sanderjd » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #89

srssays wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the quality of the teacher. If you learn remotely, you can learn from good (or at least adequate) teachers, at a pace that is right for you. I wish that resources such as Khan Academy existed when I was at school. I don't know about you, but many of my high school teachers barely understood the material they were teaching.

> I wish that resources such as Khan Academy existed when I was at school. I say this so often. And it's not that my teachers were dumb, but in a class full of people they may not have time to help those who are struggling on a topic or need a prior topic review. I've always thought an interesting experiment would be to tell students to go watch the Khan videos before the class lecture. That way the teacher can focus…

This is called an "inverted classroom" and it is well known and popular amongst teachers I know. I feel like it would have worked particularly well in college, where a huge amount of classroom time was spent passively watching a professor lecture.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#163

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:16 PM UTC

arghbleargh wrote: post #133

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #45

This person has a bunch of essays but he comes across as an sad person who doesn't believe in civil rights for women. In an eassy on his website [1], he says "Men have natural abilities and disposition towards leadership. To deny this, to mandate equality of results, to push women into masculine roles, to domesticate and feminize men, only results in misery for both men and women. Universal suffrage elections are vir…

Not to say that the thing about men vs. women isn't problematic, but that quote is taken out of context. The suffrage part is a completely separate bullet point and isn't saying that women shouldn't have the right to vote as your quote suggests. Also, the main point preceding the quote that men and women may have different natural dispositions is a reasonable one. He only oversteps by implying men are better leaders,…

You are right, I didn't notice at first that I was conflating two different ideas. Thanks for the correction!

But it is a short step from "men have natural abilities and disposition toward leadership" and "people shouldn't have universal sufferage" to women shouldn't vote.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#164

Post by ryanSrich » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #34

JDiculous wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work There are enough companies out there with remote employees and even remotely distributed teams to disprove the assertion that "remote doesn't work".

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

This continues to be a discussion point around remote work. This is displaced. You're talking about poor hiring standards. It has literally nothing to do with remote work.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#165

Post by akuma73 » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:22 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #158

Advocates of this general position, whether it's Peter Thiel and "hey don't go to college I'll just pay you" or this author's "hey your job isn't that complicated, you can figure it out in less time for less money", all miss the point of college. The best purpose of college is to make you a reasonable citizen in a democracy. Most Americans voting in elections can't even name the Vice President, let alone articulate w…

I had a different college experience. A degree in computer engineering required very little coursework outside of engineering. Due to human nature, I ended up hanging out with primarily other engineering students. All of the non-academic socializing, in retrospect, was very limited to a narrow college bubble.

It was only after I graduated and lived in the real world for a few years that I felt more 'well rounded'.

The tools to become a 'well informed citizen' should be taught at the high school level since not everyone goes to college.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#166

Post by ryanSrich » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:25 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #60

pen2l wrote: post #7

I think the author of this post is making the same mistake that a lot of other people (particularly smart folks) make whenever they are thinking about the ills of modern education system and what can be done to improve it. Like Peter Thiel and others, I don't think they understand how and why students are failing in classrooms today. Take for example the author's suggestions on how school systems can be improved: Cre…

>"The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work (in most cases)... and yet we're going to do remote with our students?" I'm curious do you have a citation for this? Have those "elite companies" - Google, FB, etc ever actually embraced a remote work force? My impression was they were always on-site shops. But maybe someone here knows more?

There's no source because it's a completely false claim. The "remote doesn't work" trope is perpetuated by Silicon Valley Culture[1][2]. Remote work is like security. You can't bolt it on and expect it to work. You can't half-ass it and expect it to work. The companies that do it correctly make it a foundation of their culture. I will cede the fact that remote work isn't for every individual, but I think even that can be overcome with the right company culture and support network.

1. http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec07/ 2. https://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-...

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#167

Post by figushki » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:31 PM UTC

This sort of article comes up on Hackerrank a lot. Zero research, a spreadsheet, and a prescription to change eduction from the ground up. The author advocates curiosity as a motivator for education, yet he doesn't appear to know anything about professional architecture (certification is complicated and not always tied to education) and doesn't seem to care enough to research it before bloviating.

I read his article dedicated to architecture on his blog, and it was equally ill-informed. Of course buildings built in the 1880s didn't require architects with a college degree. They didn't require that you know CAD, either.

What appeals to people about this type of article? The author doesn't bring any experience with education policy or teaching. He doesn't back his assertions with research, primary sources, or even secondary sources. He doesn't bother interviewing anyone with experience with the problem or who has thought about it.

And, his reasoning is fairly shoddy. Much of what he's arguing for already exists in parallel with formal education. Nothing stopped me in the past from supplementing my learning on Coursera or hiring a programmer without a degree in computer science. A good friend of mine dropped out of high school, got his GED, and went back to college. Nothing is stopping anyone, you just limit your opportunities.

Even if formal education was abolished or fully privatized, businesses would find a similar, expensive process for screening applicants. The government is rarely requiring this. It's usually industry associations.

I read this article because I'm curious about this sort of thinking. Why do we not only have a desire for simple solutions but a need for radical ones from people with no experience in the field they're discussing? Why is this appealing?

If you're curious about radical approaches to education and the deschooling movement, read Ivan Illich or research the free schools movement. I read Illich before sending my daughters to public school. I didn't think Illich had any answers, and much of what he advocated wasn't precluded by formal education. School doesn't take that much time. My kids thrived in public school, and one of them wants to be a teacher.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#168

Post by bogomipz » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #166

bogomipz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work (in most cases)... and yet we're going to do remote with our students?" I'm curious do you have a citation for this? Have those "elite companies" - Google, FB, etc ever actually embraced a remote work force? My impression was they were always on-site shops. But maybe someone here knows more?

There's no source because it's a completely false claim. The "remote doesn't work" trope is perpetuated by Silicon Valley Culture[1][2]. Remote work is like security. You can't bolt it on and expect it to work. You can't half-ass it and expect it to work. The companies that do it correctly make it a foundation of their culture. I will cede the fact that remote work isn't for every individual, but I think even that ca…

I agree with you completely and suspect there is no evidence to corroborate the claim. I thought I would ask though.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#169

Post by landryraccoon » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:45 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #164

k__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

This continues to be a discussion point around remote work. This is displaced. You're talking about poor hiring standards. It has literally nothing to do with remote work.

In a discussion about education it is very relevant. What about the 99% of the population that are not qualified and will never be qualified to work at Google, Apple or Amazon? Do we as a society just leave them behind?

Society has to accommodate for workers that bomb interviews and that you would never hire on your team even if your particular company has the luxury of pretending they don't exist.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#170

Post by overgard » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 6:45 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #161

overgard wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your actions contradict your words though. None of what this guy said about education matters to you because ideas from "this kind of person" is the overwhelming factor to you. Who cares if he has a point about college if he doesnt towe the feminist line, basically.

My actions are commensurate with my words. I don't ask that he be censored - I ask that his status as an intellectual hack be considered, and that we recognize that his writings on education are informed by his much more onerous positions. We don't debate round-earth denialists, since we know that their only motive in debate is to maximize their audience and legitimacy. It doesn't matter whether they're actually talk…

Heh, the whole "you care more about this than I do" defense. Glad were back in third grade. I feel so young.

Seriously your point is essentially elitism right? You can see that cant you? The only people worth hearing are the ones with the "right" views.

Weirdly as an adult, I can recognize that the author has some interesting views on education while also having some (alleged) viewpoints about women I dont share.