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Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

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Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#81

Post by chongli »

rmxt wrote: post #72
yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The example the parent poster described is "doctors are 66% male", which could very well be true.

My point is that neither "insects are unpleasant" nor "plants are pleasant" nor "doctors are 66% male" are immutable features of the universe. They are merely snapshots of the human view of world conditions, as the world is now. "True now", but not "true forever and always". The paper seems to advocate for designing ML systems that learn that what is "true now" may not be "true forever and always". It seems to be qui…

If your standard for truth is "immutable feature of the universe" then you might as well give up now because we don't know about any of those, or indeed if any exist at all.

Setting such a standard for a machine is ridiculous if all you want is a new tool to get some work done.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#82

Post by rjbwork »

dang wrote: post #39
draw_down wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shut up.

Whoa, posting like this is a bannable offence on Hacker News. Your recent comment history looks pretty civil, so we won't ban you, but really please don't do this.

Can we somehow see comments that are removed?

If not, are there any plans to be transparent about which speech is removed from HN? I would rather a lock subthread type functionality rather than full on deletion.

On reddit I find myself drawn to the bottom of comments sections often, in order to see the dissent and/or anger and the prevailing responses, whereas here I've noticed more lately of removals and bans all the way at the bottom.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#83

Post by grzm »

rjbwork wrote: post #82
dang wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, posting like this is a bannable offence on Hacker News. Your recent comment history looks pretty civil, so we won't ban you, but really please don't do this.

Can we somehow see comments that are removed? If not, are there any plans to be transparent about which speech is removed from HN? I would rather a lock subthread type functionality rather than full on deletion. On reddit I find myself drawn to the bottom of comments sections often, in order to see the dissent and/or anger and the prevailing responses, whereas here I've noticed more lately of removals and bans all th…

You can turn on "showdead" in your settings to display killed comments. Detached threads display at the bottom of the comments.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#84

Post by pvg »

rjbwork wrote: post #82
dang wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, posting like this is a bannable offence on Hacker News. Your recent comment history looks pretty civil, so we won't ban you, but really please don't do this.

Can we somehow see comments that are removed? If not, are there any plans to be transparent about which speech is removed from HN? I would rather a lock subthread type functionality rather than full on deletion. On reddit I find myself drawn to the bottom of comments sections often, in order to see the dissent and/or anger and the prevailing responses, whereas here I've noticed more lately of removals and bans all th…

The moderators generally don't run around removing comments.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#85

Post by m12k »

anigbrowl wrote: post #54
Houshalter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction is very important. If it's just regurgitating human biases that would be bad. Humans often have very inaccurate and warped beliefs after all. If it's accurately modelling reality, then what's the problem? That's what we want it to do. Why would you want a less accurate model of reality? I've seen interpretations of this result that think it's proof "language is sexist" or whatever. But there's no evid…

Why would we want to reproduce existing structures of oppression in mechanical form? Have you noticed how automation often vastly amplifies things? It's a short step from saying 'this model accurately reflects the bias in society' to 'that's how things are, the computer says women aren't cut out to be doctors.' Surely you are aware that in real world world people rationalize decisions they don't actually understand a…

Because you cannot change reality if you do not first acknowledge what it is. First off, this is an analysis tool. If we warp our analysis tools to pretend that e.g. no gender biases exist in places where they do, then we are not making the world a better place, we are just removing our ability to quantify the ways in which it is not.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#86

Post by eveningcoffee »

dang wrote: post #65
yummyfajitas wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wildly mischaracterizing what I said. I didn't suggest "people can't handle my truth". I suggested the article we are discussing says there are certain truths that ML systems should not learn. The article explicitly recommends building systems which can't learn those things, and suggests characterizing them is a first step: "We recommend addressing this through the explicit characterization of acceptable behav…

I don't believe I mischaracterized anything; you did throw a gratuitous provocation in that comment (more than one in fact). Obviously, though, I'm not describing one comment but a longstanding pattern. If you want to continue commenting on HN, this needs to stop. I've made many attempts to explain, don't believe anyone could accuse us of being impatient with you, and do believe you're more than smart enough to under…

I would argue that if anybody is trolling, they are the authors of the article.

Alternative and less biased conclusion: language corpora reflects statistical distributions in the society.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#87

Post by dang »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #86
dang wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe I mischaracterized anything; you did throw a gratuitous provocation in that comment (more than one in fact). Obviously, though, I'm not describing one comment but a longstanding pattern. If you want to continue commenting on HN, this needs to stop. I've made many attempts to explain, don't believe anyone could accuse us of being impatient with you, and do believe you're more than smart enough to under…

I would argue that if anybody is trolling, they are the authors of the article. Alternative and less biased conclusion: language corpora reflects statistical distributions in the society.

That's a separate issue.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#88

Post by [deleted] »

chongli wrote: post #81
rmxt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that neither "insects are unpleasant" nor "plants are pleasant" nor "doctors are 66% male" are immutable features of the universe. They are merely snapshots of the human view of world conditions, as the world is now. "True now", but not "true forever and always". The paper seems to advocate for designing ML systems that learn that what is "true now" may not be "true forever and always". It seems to be qui…

If your standard for truth is "immutable feature of the universe" then you might as well give up now because we don't know about any of those, or indeed if any exist at all. Setting such a standard for a machine is ridiculous if all you want is a new tool to get some work done.

[deleted]

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#89

Post by blfr »

dang wrote: post #42
yummyfajitas wrote: post #34

Positively right is a statement about beliefs. Normatively right is a statement about actions. It's my belief that if you want an ML system to take normatively right actions , you should explicitly encode the value of those actions (or the world states they are designed to achieve, if you are more utilitarian than virtue ethics) into it's utility function. To give a concrete example from the area of lending, you shou…

> because there are things man should not know I get that you like to take contrarian positions. But you also make a habit of inserting flamebait into your posts about them. This combination is trolling. If you continue to do this we will ban you. Specifically, we need you to stop playing the following game on HN: 1. Post contrarian view 2. Include provocation 3. People get provoked 4. Act like people can't handle yo…

when you consistently generate such effects, you become responsible, regardless of what's wrong with others or their views

Sure, some of yummyfajtias comments are a bit trollish but he points out real contradictions in submissions and other comments. I have his threads bookmarked and visit them directly to check my thinking. It would be a huge loss for HN.

It's like the Socrates thing all over again. You would be banning someone offering interesting insight for upsetting the social order of the place.

Re: Semantics derived automatically from language corpora contain human-like biases

#90

Post by rjbwork »

grzm wrote: post #83
rjbwork wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we somehow see comments that are removed? If not, are there any plans to be transparent about which speech is removed from HN? I would rather a lock subthread type functionality rather than full on deletion. On reddit I find myself drawn to the bottom of comments sections often, in order to see the dissent and/or anger and the prevailing responses, whereas here I've noticed more lately of removals and bans all th…

You can turn on "showdead" in your settings to display killed comments. Detached threads display at the bottom of the comments.

Thanks!
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