How many jobs really require college? • Hacker News Board

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#71

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #56

kazagistar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't apprenticeship contracts functionally slavery? You think free money will be abused, but this won't be?

Is apprenticeship where you do not get into debt but not remunerated for you work any worse form slavery than the 4-year degree that leaves the student with 100K debt, which the student has to service the next decade or so of his life? Not only you are cheapening "slavery" as a word, but mis-framing the issue.

> Is apprenticeship where you do not get into debt but not remunerated for you work

That is not apprenticeship, it is unpaid internship, and it is much worse then taking on debt to get an education because it creates a vast gap in opportunity based on existing wealth.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#72

Post by nebabyte » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #34

JDiculous wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most elite companies in the valley have correctly found out that remote doesn't work There are enough companies out there with remote employees and even remotely distributed teams to disprove the assertion that "remote doesn't work".

I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do. I met a whole bunch of people who want to be a dev because it pays well. Most of them need constant supervision.

> I have the feeling remote works only for people who have an intrinsic motivation to be good at what they do.

Have you met kids? Many (most?) of them have an innate curiousity which is not hard to channel into a passion for learning given they get to learn things they enjoy, and if you tell them how well they're doing, they can get quite competitive about doing better.

Self-motivation wasn't instilled by a system of proscribing to kids what and how they had to learn, but that doesn't mean a system can't be built around nurturing it.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#73

Post by joefourier » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #54

joefourier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the reason many students require the imposition of an authority is because the educational system does not encourage the development of self-learning skills? From the first year of elementary school onward, students are explicitly told what to learn and when to learn it; even homework assignments are generally just the completion of predetermined exercises. It should come as no surprise that many will then fa…

Oddly enough (and anecdotally of course), I actually needed the classroom environment to learn some subjects, but not others. So it can't be that my brain is locked into a particular mode of learning. I learned computer programming and electronics, completely on my own, except for one introductory course in each subject. On the other hand, it would have been hard for me to learn math and physics on my own, and those…

Perhaps this is related to the more theoretical nature of math and physics? With computer programming especially, you can immediately apply the concepts you learn and get instant feedback and satisfaction from seeing simple programs actually achieve things.

With math and physics, I've found that I am far motivated to learn concepts when having an immediate practical application for them, say in the context of computer graphics. Being able to apply what you're learning to create things is tremendously motivating, while if you remain in the pure theoretical domain, it can seem abstract and aimless without an external structure to direct you.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#74

Post by acslater00 » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

One of the things I learned in college is that when someone says "I have thought about this social problem and understand both the cause and solution, please join me as I attempt to radically address it via state action" you should get as far away from him as possible. The history of such programs is, to say the least, not a story of success and progress and rainbows.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#75

Post by tptacek » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

The premise of this post is that the author has performed an analysis of the educational requirements for jobs and can extrapolate from it. But this author thinks that only a grade school education and not more than 6 months of training is required to be a cook --- a profession people go to post-secondary school for --- and that some college study is required to be a programmer. How seriously should I take their conclusions?

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#76

Post by overgard » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #66

overgard wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like the definition of an ad-hominem attack. Your argument is basically "he believes some unpopular things so all his ideas should be discredited." I dont know this guy and I doubt I think the way he thinks, but the essay is the essay -- it should stand or fall on its own merits.

Saying women shouldn't be able to full civil rights is like saying gay people shouldn't be counted a full humans, or using the n word for black people. It's just not acceptable, in my opinion, and taints anything one writes. It's beyond the pale.

So your point is that we should ignore any point he made because he thinks something bad on a separate topic? You realize if thats your standard you should probably exclude most famous historical philosophers, along with the 6 billion or so living humans who dont subscribe to modern western philosophy. It turns out you can learn something from people that dont share your values. Or you can read Jezebel all day and ride the outrage train.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#77

Post by Zak » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

College degrees largely serve the social function titles of nobility once did. Having one shows that you have a shared set of experiences and a personal investment in a certain set of values and social norms. Requiring one for many jobs is much more about ensuring applicants belong to the class the employer prefers than any specific education the job requires.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#78

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #50

kazagistar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't apprenticeship contracts functionally slavery? You think free money will be abused, but this won't be?

So I don't know about all fields, but I know about programming. Do you know how much value a high school type person has in writing computer programs for an actual software company? Something fairly negative. Say -$10 an hour or -$50 an hour, based on how much experienced person time they take up and how much damage they do. If you run a small profitable business, even if you could get high schoolers to work for free…

It sucks for the big corps to not be able to contractually force labor out of workers who they have trained. But it sucks far far more if you are stuck in an abusive contract.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#79

Post by socrates1998 » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

1) People don't know what they want to be when they are 11 years old, so how you do determine who gets what kind of education?

2) People don't want to be truck drivers for their whole lives. Hell, truck driver might not even be a job.

3) The goal of education isn't to get a job, it's to get an education. The job comes after and can be unrelated to the education.

Those are the three things I can think of that make me think this guy hasn't thought his argument through very well.

Re: How many jobs really require college?

#80

Post by nebabyte » Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #54

joefourier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the reason many students require the imposition of an authority is because the educational system does not encourage the development of self-learning skills? From the first year of elementary school onward, students are explicitly told what to learn and when to learn it; even homework assignments are generally just the completion of predetermined exercises. It should come as no surprise that many will then fa…

Oddly enough (and anecdotally of course), I actually needed the classroom environment to learn some subjects, but not others. So it can't be that my brain is locked into a particular mode of learning. I learned computer programming and electronics, completely on my own, except for one introductory course in each subject. On the other hand, it would have been hard for me to learn math and physics on my own, and those…

Which is exactly the argument FOR letting kids choose their own path.

There are a few subjects which kids have 'forced' on them which they end up 'never using', and certain others which they do end up needing later but are introduced to in a different way or context which makes it actually interesting.

It's not a bad idea to let them start with the subjects they like, give them the assurance and security of knowing that a stable life exists for them having that basis, then encourage them to pursue other subjects at their leisure if and when those things become relevant.