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Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

nytimes.com

251–260 of 261 posts

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#251
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will we learn in 30 years that milk is actually unhealthy I do not know if you are joking, but we know for some time now that regular consumption of dairy as an adult human increases risk for many health complications. (similarly evidence builds up against meat and eggs for some time now) http://nutritionstudies.org/12-frightening-facts-milk/ http://www.peta.org/living/food/reasons-stop-drinking-milk/ http://www.pc…

I deliberately chose this subject because I know it's very controversial. I had head aches all my life, and my hippie family doctor told me I should stop milk. I never listened to her. Then in the last recent years I made experiments, and I noticed a correlation between raw milk intake and my head aches. Now my veggie no gluten no milk doctor has died. Of cancer. Oh the irony. But I don't have to take pain killers th…

Maybe it depends on how the milk was processed or not rather than the milk itself? I also have health issues with milk, yet find yoghurt and milk based products just fine.

There are studies that found a link between gut bacteria and mental illnesses. Some of the bacteria in our guts also thrives in milk based products like yoghurt.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, but not really to smoking. Tobacco is far safer chewed or insufflated than smoked, and cigarettes have a bunch of additional terrible chemicals in them.

It is not in fact safe to chew tobacco.

You can get gum and other mouth cancers.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#253

It's difficult to judge long term toxicity in humans. You don't immediately keel over and die when you smoke a cigarette, and the correlation between lung cancer and cigarettes needs a fully understandable cause. That's how the industry slipped by for years. Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health. The anti-fl…

> Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health I've never researched this so it may be confirmation bias, but my experience living in Europe and the US is that Americans have better looking teeth.

Mainly because of implants, whitening treatments, social pressure and because they banned smoking in the past 17 years.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#255
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually another option -- especially with respect to herbicides: manual labour. Herbicides don't increase yield. They decrease cost. Wheat is currently $4.35 a bushel. A bushel of wheat is about 60 lbs. So, we're paying just over 7 cents a pound for wheat. Fix the distribution side, not the production side. There's a lot more fat there. And in the mean time, research ways of reducing labour on physical meth…

Have you ever been on a wheat farm? I actually have been and even got to help around the farm for fun. My friend had 4.5 squares. That is a square equals 1 square mile. How would we increase labor for weed control? I also lived in Imperial Valley, California. The back breaking work that the migrant workers did was amazing difficult. It would take double or triple the workers to pick through and weed a farm then pick…

I grew up in Winnipeg. :-) Weeding and the like is considerably less "back breaking" than most of the manual labour we have now (like house painting, window washing, road construction, etc). I've harvested rice by hand (cutting with a hand sickle). It's fun.

In North America, we build these huge farms because it's the only way to eke out a profit. You need serious capital to get started and you have a single person looking after land from one horizon to the other. This happens because the price of wheat is $4 and change a bushel.

And although milk production is often below cost, because of regulatory pressures distribution costs are kept low. Compared to wheat, milk is dramatically more difficult to process and distribute, and yet the markup is many times less. If you look at the difference, you can see where all the money is going.

I suggest that you can increase the cost of production of wheat 8-10 times without significantly affecting the final price. This would allow you to have 5 times as many farmers. It would allow them to use smaller, less expensive equipment. It would allow them to reduce their reliance on loans and insurance, further reducing their costs.

And, yes, we have more than enough labour as long as we pay people a reasonable wage. In my father's generation, university students all used to work on the farms for their summer jobs. Now? Pizza Pizza. The whole reason we have "summer vacation" is so that students could work on the farms.

I live in rural Japan now. I literally live smack dab in the middle of rice fields. Because of the protectionist policies for the last 60 years (installed by the Americans, BTW), farming here is dramatically different. A farm here can be about the size of a residential lot in North America. And... guess what? None of my neighbours use herbicide on their fields. 2 applications of pesticide a year (once in the spring for slugs/snails, once a few weeks before harvesting for grasshoppers -- some of the farmers have been growing an early variety lately and so are able to get the rice off the field before the grasshoppers emerge, so they skip the second application. Some skip the first application by over-planting and then thinning -- by hand!).

And for those interested, they do have amazing planters and harvesters. A couple of guys use traditional tractors, but they make an absolute mess of the fields. Most people use these tiny go-cart like devices. You can plant a field in less than an hour and it barely disturbs the soil at all. It's amazing. They have another device that cuts and bundles the rice stalks, but everybody hangs and dries their rice by hand. Then they load it up into pickup trucks and thresh it at a central location.

Is my hope that we can fix the distribution system, inject cash back into farms, reduce farm size and increase the number of people working on farms realistic? I seriously doubt it. But I still think that it's important to understand that this is a problem of our own making. This is about money, not about science.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#256
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually another option -- especially with respect to herbicides: manual labour. Herbicides don't increase yield. They decrease cost. Wheat is currently $4.35 a bushel. A bushel of wheat is about 60 lbs. So, we're paying just over 7 cents a pound for wheat. Fix the distribution side, not the production side. There's a lot more fat there. And in the mean time, research ways of reducing labour on physical meth…

In dry parts of the world herbicide use can significantly increase yield. Where I live in Australia a lot of broad-acre farming is "no-till". A field is seeded directly into stubble of the previous crop without mechanical tilling or weeding. Avoiding turning the soil retains moisture and stops top-soil blowing away. We recently had a fire come through near where I live and farmers were remarking they "hadn't seen the…

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think the use of herbicide in no-till farming is to kill the cover crop before you plant. There are several other ways to do it. The way they do it in SE asia is that they grow a cover crop that mats together. You can think of it a bit like a lawn, where the roots and runners of the grass forms a sward. With a knife, you can pull up the mat by hand. This achieves the same result without the herbicide.

There is also some research for devices that will work. One way is to disc the cover crop. This is reasonably effective, apparently. Another thing I've seen is a device that kind of rakes the cover crop without disturbing it -- a bit like the manual method.

Finally, you don't necessarily have to kill the cover crop, depending on what it is (and depending on your crop). You can disc where you intend to plant, or you can even just drill to plan the seeds. The is apparently very effective in dry soil rice production in the southern US, but I haven't really been following it.

Finally, one of the techniques that's popular here in Japan is to grow a clover cover crop in the winter, but then cover it with the stalks of last year's rice. Then when you harvest the rice, you move the decomposing stalks back where you intend to plan and resow clover again. This has the advantage of reducing fertilisation use.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#257

It's difficult to judge long term toxicity in humans. You don't immediately keel over and die when you smoke a cigarette, and the correlation between lung cancer and cigarettes needs a fully understandable cause. That's how the industry slipped by for years. Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health. The anti-fl…

> Likewise, most European countries do not fluoridate their water and the correlation doesn't seem to show any significant difference in dental health I've never researched this so it may be confirmation bias, but my experience living in Europe and the US is that Americans have better looking teeth.

Because Americans go all out on cosmetic dental procedures and corrections where the teeth are otherwise fine.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#258
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly do not understand that a company with such a track record is widely considered to be an legit business. They're a public enemy!

Maybe because most of their track record is just really bad PR and most people just fall for the big evil corporation line without ever fact checking claims?

It's hard to fact check when information is suppressed and research is carried out or paid for by the same corporations that are being investigated.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean we should fact check the unsealed emails? Let me quote one of the more explicit parts of the article: > Court records show that Monsanto was tipped off to the determination by a deputy division director at the E.P.A., Jess Rowland, months beforehand. That led the company to prepare a public relations assault on the finding well in advance of its publication. Monsanto executives, in their internal email traff…

That doesn't make them automatically guilty of every evil thing people tend to pin on them. By all means, let's hold them accountable for the evil they've provably done, but the oft-repeated "they sued a guy who had seeds wind up on his field" is throughly debunked.

> That doesn't make them automatically guilty of every evil thing people tend to pin on them.

No, but it does give people the justification for intense suspicion and cynicism when it comes to the company in question.

Re: Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents

#260

I think the proper comparison is Roundup verses other herbicides. It that comparative analysis, it definitely wins.

being the best of a bad bunch (if it does in fact have these health risks) won't somehow make it good.
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