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Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

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Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#61

Post by wernercd »

randomwalker wrote: post #18
devy wrote: post #4

> Another technique used to hide the ad blockers' activities is even more impressive. They are able to "create two copies of the page, one which the user sees (and to which ad-blocking will be applied) and one which the publisher code interacts with, and to ensure that information propagates between these copies in one direction but not the other." So this ultimate ad-blocker would potentially consume twice as much r…

Coauthor of the paper here. No --- this is not one of the three techniques that we implemented. It was a hypothetical suggestion for future work. Unfortunate that the article didn't make that clear. Here is the paper http://randomwalker.info/publications/ad-blocking-framework-... Here is our blog post about it: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2017/04/14/the-future-of-ad-bl...

Just a throw out question:

One of the biggest issues (IMO) is the security threat... if there is a second copy that "we" don't see, doesn't that mean that the second copy can do "bad things" still?

Case in Point: Forbes requests you disable ad-blocker... then serves pop-under malware:

http://www.networkworld.com/article/3021113/security/forbes-...

I could stomach ads - just like I stomached commercials on TV shows... you get used to them and they become white noise... if the ads were unobtrusive and non-invasive (IE: Google Search Results)... it's full screen, pop-up/under, audio, video, etc. Then throw on top of that malware...

What's to stop the malware from biting on that second copy?

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#62

Post by pjc50 »

dpflan wrote: post #28
throwaway13337 wrote: post #2

What would a post-ad-supported web looks like? Only selling user data without a way to use it to target ads? Consumer software that isn't free? Sock puppet marketing run rampant? It would sure be a different world.

HTTP 402's and cryptocurrencies (fractional payments for access)? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7857236 I remember talking to a friend who was trying out 21co's "bitcoin" computer and that 402+cryptocurrency payment seemed like something to evolve from that project. It seems to have changed focus a bit since that discussion. https://21.co/

Isn't there a global limit of 3 bitcoin transactions per second and a cost of about $10 in electricity too?

21.co was an obvious scam with near zero sales.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#63

Post by [deleted] »

downandout wrote: post #36

The article puts a significant emphasis on the idea that bulletproof ad-blocking technology, assuming that's what this turns out to be in practice, will work long-term becuase of legal restrictions imposed by the FTC. If Google, Facebook, or other multi-billion dollar entities detect an existential threat arising from this or any other technology, rest assured that the laws will change as quickly as is necessary to k…

[deleted]

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#64

Post by Animats »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #33
ktta wrote: post #31

If anyone want's the source of the proof of concept extension[1] here's a link to get it. Just use wget https://clients2.google.com/service/update2/crx?response=red... You should just be able to unzip it. [1]: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/perceptual-ad-bloc...

Or you could add some fangs to it yourself[1] by forking it... 1: https://github.com/citp/ad-blocking/tree/master/perceptual-a...

From the description, it only finds very specific types of ads:

For Facebook ad detection, it finds newsfeed items by looking for containers within the given width constraints and border on the side; it looks for the sidebar ads by searching for containers with the proper size constraints in a sidebar. It then determines which newsfeed items are ads by searching for the "Sponsored" link within them and checking whether this link ultimately goes to the Facebook "about ads" page.

For Adchoices detection, it runs a content script in every iframe which searches all of the images, (those explicit in an img element, those in the background-image css, and those drawn as an svg) and then uses fuzzy hashing to compare them to example Adchoices icons. If any of the images match, it highlights the iframe as an advertisement.

That won't remove a typical banner ad, or an ad popup.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#65

Post by jerf »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #41
theandrewbailey wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been hearing lots of good things about Patreon, especially from Youtube personalities. I haven't heard of Flattr being used much recently.

Patreon works around the concept of subscriptions, rather than one-off payments. One-off payments seems like the better idea, and a cryptocurrency seems like a natural fit. Perhaps not bitcoin, since the fees are so high, but maybe ethereum or litecoin.

The problem with one-off payments is that payments are just that... one-off. If you make $500 this month, the correlation on making $500 next month isn't strong enough for most people to feel very comfortable trying to make a living or reliable hobby out of whatever you're trying to pay them for. The long tail is generally going to have "hits" where they spike up on certain posts or videos or whathave you, but those are unreliable. People don't generally like their income to follow a power law.

So I think that's where the core Patreon advantage lies; get around 1000 people to give you 1-5$ a month and you're living a middle class lifestyle with some reasonable assurance that next month you're not going to make 1/50th what you made last month. (It isn't perfect, but nothing is. There is not a single person reading this who can guarantee me with mathematical 100% precision that next month they're going to have positive income.)

In fact I'd point out that when it comes down to it, the incentives created by pervasive, automatic micropayments looks almost identical to what we have now. Clickbait, low-effort high-volume articles would rule. There would be fewer trackers, but that would be about it. I like what the Patreon ecosystem puts out waaaay better than that. I think you actually need that bit of detachment between the product and the payment, if you ever want to see a work produced with a thought other than "How many clicks can this exact article get?" Patreon artists are not severed from the need to make sure they stay popular with their base but at least they can go down tangents and be speculative sometimes without it instantly trashing a noticeable portion of their income.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#66

Post by darkstar999 »

mdpopescu wrote: post #37

I think these guys haven't read pg's Submarine [1]. Assuming everything works as they claim (it won't), the ads will just pretend to be articles. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Yeah, can this thing block product placement in youtube videos? Didn't think so.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#67

Post by mi100hael »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #19
nickbail3y wrote: post #15

According to the article, current adblockers like Ublock Origin aren't searching for keywords in the page elements for ads, they're just using human maintained lookup lists? That's very surprising. I would have thought that would be the first avenue of attack for adblockers. Also, who wants to help me retrofit this thing to actually block ads?

> they're just using human maintained lookup lists? That's correct. The lists are maintained here: https://forums.lanik.us

I'm pretty sure at least some of the popular adblockers out there block based on basic keywords as well. We had some users complain that an adblocker was blocking valid parts of our web app because some of the page elements had IDs that started with '#ad-' since 'A.D.' was an internal abbreviation for one of our features.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#68

Post by downandout »

jpambrun wrote: post #60
downandout wrote: post #36

The article puts a significant emphasis on the idea that bulletproof ad-blocking technology, assuming that's what this turns out to be in practice, will work long-term becuase of legal restrictions imposed by the FTC. If Google, Facebook, or other multi-billion dollar entities detect an existential threat arising from this or any other technology, rest assured that the laws will change as quickly as is necessary to k…

Not sure Anti-ad-blocking laws are practically enforceable. Even with the ad labeling requirements relaxed, unless it is truly deceptive, a CNN could identify it just as well (or better) than we can.

Interesting question. Given the incredible latitude that courts have afforded to the CFAA, if a site put in its TOS that accessing it with an ad blocker enabled is prohibited, would that be actionable? Could ad blocking companies in such a case be held liable for tortious interference and/or conspiracy to violate the CFAA?

I don't know the answer, but I can certainly see a lower court ruling that way before it is decided by the Supreme Court. To be sure, that's where this would be headed if this kind of technology becomes ubiquitous and effective.

Re: Princeton’s Ad-Blocker May Put an End to the Ad-Blocking Arms Race

#70

Post by tn135 »

downandout wrote: post #36

The article puts a significant emphasis on the idea that bulletproof ad-blocking technology, assuming that's what this turns out to be in practice, will work long-term becuase of legal restrictions imposed by the FTC. If Google, Facebook, or other multi-billion dollar entities detect an existential threat arising from this or any other technology, rest assured that the laws will change as quickly as is necessary to k…

> If Google, Facebook, or other multi-billion dollar entities detect an existential threat arising from this or any other technology, rest assured that the laws will change as quickly as is necessary to keep them happy. Lobbyists will be paid, and donations will be made

Money will be paid and wolves will be invited in the house to essentially bring a legislation that is not enforceable. As a profit hungry business owner that sounds like a real bad move.

If I were google or facebook I would rather have a much more robust plan B that would involve using technology and size to benefit from the strategy.

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