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As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

nytimes.com

121–130 of 431 posts

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#121

> For all sorts of reasons, New Zealand suddenly makes sense. The cost of living is less than in San Francisco. Commuting is less wearying. And American politics, “Brexit” and the Islamic State are on the other side of the world. For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. You especially don't have to go to New Zealand to find a cheaper, commuter-friendly place to work. No…

Staying off of Facebook doesn't insulate someone if they are not caucasian. http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/24/shooting-of-2-indians-... I don't know if you know this, but large swaths of America were so unsafe to travel for African Americans for a long time after slavery ended, that a guidebook was created specifically for the purpose of avoiding the most dangerous areas. http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/g…

I'll believe immigrants' revealed preferences. Clearly they prefer living around those horrible white people to living around their own people in their own country.

And - Good thing none of us have a time portal to 1954.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and…

> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and…

This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA.

Like all places, the Midwest is not without its unhappy quirks or its difficult people, but Midwesterners are noticeably polite and friendly, even coming from other "flyover" regions.

Yes, they are generally conservative (not universally, and especially not among the young), but they can usually get along with their neighbors just fine.

When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood. While I'm sure it upset some of the parents, these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools. This was in a very red region, not some liberal enclave.

We had people of all races and it was rarely, if ever, a visible issue. We didn't have anyone shouting racial slurs or visibly denigrating people. I'm sure this happened occasionally, not trying to say that there are literally 0 racists, but it was by no means a sentiment you'd come across with any frequency.

If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest.

The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and…

> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and…

I live in Tulsa and disagree entirely. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#124
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't most tech guys be able to support a family working for any of the local web developers, app developers or IT departments of non tech companies that you find all over Florida, New Zealand and most of the Western world? In urban areas of Florida and New Zealand you will find these jobs everywhere within a 5 mile radius. Maybe not always so interesting or well paying as some jobs in IT corporations, but good to…

> $50,000 in Fort Lauderdale is as good as $120,000 in the valley. No, it's really not -- it's actually more like $77,000[1]. With the bulk of the difference being driven by housing prices. And $77,000 is actually above the average salary for a SE in Ft. Lauderdale (according to Glassdoor: $73,000). [1] http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l...

So I'm in essentially this situation and I concur that my salary does not completely adjust to an SV/Bay Area salary. But there are also 3 things that do not seem possible at once despite the extra money which keep me from pursuing opportunities in tech hubs: I'm ~5 minutes from biking/hiking/outdoors, ~10 minutes from work, and have a house with a shop/garage. So far as I can tell if I were to move to a tech hub I might be just shy of doubling my salary, but it wouldn't be possible to have the 3 things mentioned regardless unless I spent so much on housing that I'd have an effectively lower income, though I'd definitely make substantially more if I sacrificed them.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#125
post #2

Has anyone here made the move? It would be interesting to hear some real life stories, and post honeymoon-phase pros/cons evaluation of NZ.

Family moved to NZ back in the 90s; I now live in Wellington.

1. Cost of living is higher than you might expect. Housing is ridiculously expensive in the main cities (not SF/NYC levels, maybe, but getting close). Food is also much more expensive than you might expect, especially some staples likes meat. Chicken, for example is almost twice as expensive. And as others have noted, the quality of the housing stock is awful. The typical kiwi house has horrible insulation, is very draughty, has no HVAC, and woefully insufficient storage, power points, etc. It's baffling.

2. Salaries are low, at least once you compare to the cost of living. If you're making the equivalent of USD$70k gross, you're doing pretty good; you then have to pay income tax which drops you down to around USD$52k net. It goes further than it would in SF, but given the cost of living, not that far.)

3. Country is lovely, people are nice, political system is very sane, the health care system works very, very well, the social safety net (welfare, unemployment) is not exactly generous, but it exists and works. If you can afford to live here, there are some enormous intangible benefits. And some of the benefits are quite tangible. Private health insurance exists but is hardly a necessity; even without it a doctors visit would be around USD$35, a prescription USD$4, a specialist will often be free due to government subsidies, emergency care is free at point of use, etc. Also, at least in Wellington, the public transit system is really quite good. Not cheap (...actually quite expensive!), but has a broad reach, very reliable, very safe and clean. I've seen MPs riding the bus to parliament; I imagine you don't see too many senators on the DC metro.

4. There are a LOT of startups around, a tech friendly culture, tons of meetups, lots of jobs, etc. There are big companies, small companies, SaaS companies, enterprisey outfits, machine learning startups, lots of argumented reality startips, accounting startups, etc., etc., and a lot of them are competing globally. Xero is probably the biggest success story, but it's the tip of the iceberg; there's a long tail. NZ is small, but the major cities don't feel like a backwater. Someone in another comment was comparing the cost of living to Tulsa, but you'd never mistake Tulsa for Wellington under any circumstances. :) It feels more like Seattle or Vancouver just...smaller.

I'm very happy to be here, but it's not for everyone. It's certainly different, there's a major culture change, it's not a clear-cut financial win, and the plane flight back to the states to visit family is hideously expensive and utterly unpleasant. But it has its pluses.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#126

> For the most part, this is all true in, say, Tulsa. Especially if you stay off Facebook. Really only the cost of living. > Commuting is less wearying Not really. There's a near zero percent chance your commute involves anything other than driving. The walkable areas of midwestern cities are certainly cheaper than SF, but they're also not exactly cheap. You're still looking at half a million for a decent house, 200k…

There are so many things wrong with this comment. First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work. I hate cars, but you're being dishonest in how you're addressing the parent comment. Going to the grocery store, for example, isn't a commute. Actually you could probably use Prime Pantry or something and not even have to drive to go do those things. I strongly prefer a walkable city, and…

You being different than the majority of the Midwest doesn't change the fact that the majority of the Midwest is conservative.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#127
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't most tech guys be able to support a family working for any of the local web developers, app developers or IT departments of non tech companies that you find all over Florida, New Zealand and most of the Western world? In urban areas of Florida and New Zealand you will find these jobs everywhere within a 5 mile radius. Maybe not always so interesting or well paying as some jobs in IT corporations, but good to…

I mean, it's plausible that we could make enough to get by doing work that isn't fulfilling. Building websites for local churches, for example, can pay well enough to at least keep the lights on, and there's plenty of that sort of work. Trouble is, it can be career killing to be out of the game for a few months, especially if web dev is not what you want to be doing.

I regularly take three months off to Not Do Work and have yet to have a single problem picking up new work. Some envy, but no problems.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and…

Stop with the generalizations. They're inaccurate and insulting. You don't know what you're talking about at all.

I'm not saying "all midwesterners are racist and believe in crazy shit". I'm saying it's more common and harder to avoid in the midwest.

I think that claim is both true and demonstrable. I even suggested one empirical test.

At the very least, it's not a generalization. Saying "box a has more red gumballs than box b, so if you don't like red, choose box b" isn't the same as saying "all the gumballs in that box are red".

> You don't know what you're talking about at all.

With all due respect, I lived in the midwest long enough to have an informed opinion. Maybe our experiences differ, but mine are PERFECTLY well-informed.

I believe that you know what you're talking about. I also don't believe your experiences are perfectly representative.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#129
post #73

Funny how it goes from appealing to "American Lord of the Rings nerds and Peter Thiel" really quickly. Had our honeymoon in New Zealand and really loved it. Auckland and Wellington are both beautiful, but, frankly, I'd rather be somewhere more relaxed like Nelson. I wish we had spent more time enjoying the south island and less time up north. Not so practical if you're trying to find work, though, I suppose. (I didn'…

I left DC for Maine. So far, the novelty hasn't worn off. I like to think of cold, snowy winters as the natural repellent that prevents us from getting too crowded. I am screwed if my job goes away (screwed in that I'd have to move). For one, there aren't a lot of fortune 500 companies up here, and I've noticed a desire for smaller companies to prefer people with small/startup experience. I don't blame them, some of…

For a different viewpoint, I moved away from Maine after college, to Massachusetts, and wouldn't move back. The politics of the area are backwards and profoundly broken in the "boy, I hope you're a straight white male or things are gonna get rough" sort of way you don't expect from the general oasis of New England sanity, the drug issues in the places I grew up are rampant, and the public schools are being actively choked to death (because who needs that, yeah?).

It's a beautiful place. I'm glad I left and I'm glad the few people in my family still there are either retired or working on escaping.

Re: As New Zealand Courts Tech Talent, Isolation Becomes a Draw

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many things wrong with this comment. I feel strongly about the midwest. I hated living there. There are serious down-sides, and if people move to Tulsa thinking it's "NZ in the USA", they're going to be in for a rough surprise. Do you disagree? > First, commuting refers specifically to the to-and-from of your journey to work My point was that you're probably going to end up driving in either case, and…

This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA. Like all places, the Midwest is not without its unhappy quirks or its difficult people, but Midwesterners are noticeably polite and friendly, even coming from other "flyover" regions. Yes, they are ge…

> This assumes that one's politics align with the politics and hostile culture in California. I intentionally avoid living in CA due to its culture/politics and have turned down multiple bona fide relocation offers to CA.

This is certainly true! To each his own. My point was that the midwest probably isn't a great place to be if you're looking for "cheaper California".

Sounds like we agree on that.

> When I lived in the Midwest, we had not only multiple gay people, but multiple gay teachers living in our neighborhood... these teachers were able to go about their business just fine and spent many years teaching at the schools

1. "Not being fired for being gay" is literally the lowest bar I can think of other that "not being imprisoned for being gay".

2. A school I attended explicitly discriminated against trans people in hiring. And those are the public schools. So, YMMV. I'm sure things have gotten better across the entire country since then, including the midwest.

3. Even without "lose your job/house" levels of hate, the world can still be a nasty place. E.g. imagine driving by this billboard every day: http://www.medina-gazette.com/news/2013/02/22/Passers-by-on-...

And of course most of the people you interact with disagree with the sign, but attend churches that teach the exact same thing. Those "midwestern nice" interactions don't feel so "nice" anymore.

> If you live in a big city like NYC or SF, you probably get exposed to more "intolerance" from contrarians/extremists who also live in big cities than someone who lives in the Midwest.

Sure. The difference is who's in charge! And that's the difference that makes a difference.

> The Midwest is a great place to be. It's extremely unfair to cast such aspersions on it.

For you. I hated it.

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