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Saturn moon 'able to support life'

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Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#91

Post by api »

winfred wrote: post #89
Houshalter wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read an interesting theory about this before but I can't remember the source. If there was intelligent life on Antarctica, it would be impossible for us to detect it today. Antarctica was warmer once and could have supported much more life. It's plausible any life that evolved there would be restricted to that continent. Humans evolved in warm climates and could adapt to cold climates by building shelters and we…

Here you go: http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica%20fact%20file/scien... Mining wasn't banned until 1991. And as the article outlines, Antarctica is a really, really inhospitable place, to the point that it might be easier to colonize a different planet than to colonize Antarctica (I'd probably prefer equatorial Mars over Antarctica) and even mineral extraction would be very complicated.

I read a great rundown once on /r/space about how Antarctica actually is in many ways less hospitable than Mars, at least in winter. I find that rather amazing.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#92

Post by Baeocystin »

Cyph0n wrote: post #24
nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

How do we know that 65 million years is long enough for a species with a human-like intelligence to evolve? What if our evolution was merely a biological fluke that took much less time than usual?

I think this is a particularly salient point.

Earth is already well on the backside of how much longer it will be hospitable to life. First life was ~4 billion years ago. First multicellular life, 1.5. And now here we are, the first intelligence of our kind, clearly closely related to the animals we descended from, but just as clearly different in how our minds work.

That's one example in 4 billion years, and the Earth has between 500 million to 1 billion years left before the ever-increasing brightness of the sun boils the oceans and sterilizes the planet.

It could easily be that life is stunningly common across the universe, but that 80% is at the level of bacteria, and 99.x% is simple animals at best.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#93

Post by Baeocystin »

losvedir wrote: post #58
Swizec wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it's a completely different category? We used to think all animals are incapable of intelligence and everything they do is "instinct". Now we know they can think, organize, have complex social structures, even imagine and form plans. Many show evidence of being self aware. So we're not special enough anymore and we have to come up with a new word? I don't buy it. It's likely that humans' extraordinary…

Heh, I originally started this comment "oh come on!" as I thought you were being needlessly obtuse. Agriculture, written language, metal smelting, universities, space shuttles, nuclear bombs, radio, computers, etc. It was obvious to me that we're in a whole other category from other species. But then I thought about human tribes in the rain forest that don't have any of those. Are they not as intelligent us? But they…

Human tribes in the rainforest have levels of social sophistication, technology, and manipulation of their local environment that outstrips any other animal. It's not close.

Look at the recent discoveries in the Amazon basin. Layers of dirt thousands of years old, still filled with the charcoal used to improve soil quality. Species of plants that were clearly selected for over time. The list goes on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#94

Post by Swizec »

hyperpallium wrote: post #74
Swizec wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. How intelligent is intelligent? Homo Neanderthalensis predated Homo Sapiens by about 100,000 years. They were intelligent enough to build tools and have communities. Oldest corvid fossils are 25 million years old[1]. They are known to be very intelligent and modern crows can solve 8-step puzzles…

I thought corvids a strong candidate, but if they've been around for 25 million years without getting human-level intelligence, they mightn't ever get it, like the dinosaurs. General commemt: we can have increasing complexity, without a specific trend towards it, by positing evolution in all directions. We'd get mostly simple life, and fewer instances as complexity increases - which is what we do see. Most life is un…

Well, birds are dinosaurs. Avian theropods to be precise.

So maybe dinosaurs are still working towards their limit. We know that their brains produce more pound per pound intelligence than mammalian brains. It's like they're more efficient.

But maybe something about that efficiency is Good Enough so they don't progress further.

Although watching my parrot at home is quite something. He's definitely on par with a young human in terms of coercing cooperation and puzzle solving.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#95

Post by awirth »

api wrote: post #91
winfred wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica%20fact%20file/scien... Mining wasn't banned until 1991. And as the article outlines, Antarctica is a really, really inhospitable place, to the point that it might be easier to colonize a different planet than to colonize Antarctica (I'd probably prefer equatorial Mars over Antarctica) and even mineral extraction would be very complicated.

I read a great rundown once on /r/space about how Antarctica actually is in many ways less hospitable than Mars, at least in winter. I find that rather amazing.

Perhaps you're thinking of this thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/2xvdow/why_worry_abo...

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#96

Post by usefulcat »

JuliusKaiser wrote: post #73
GlennS wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Largest stone monuments gone after 10,000 years? Are you sure? The pyramids are already approaching 5,000 years old. Do they show any signs of disappearing?

No, because they are maintained for tourist and historical value.

But said maintenance is relatively recent (~100 years?) compared to their age.

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#97

Post by stevenwoo »

spydum wrote: post #88
sharun wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stone degrades faster than bone? Stone tools have been found that are 2-3 million years old - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_tool

always wondered how exactly this process works.. you can date the stone itself, but how do you date the shaping of the stone?

The assumption is the surrounding sediment can suffice for a good enough approximation. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/science/13qna.html

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#98

Post by ioddly »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #80
nostrademons wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious if anyone's ever observed something similar to this? It'd be super easy to detect if you're looking for it, but most miners aren't thinking "Hmm, I wonder if a previous intelligent species existed on earth millions of years before us."

Surely if a previous society extracted megatons of ore from the ground there would be something left of that civilisation. At least a wheel track or a scrape mark, not to mention maybe a spanner.

Pretty sure evidence of Roman metallurgy can be detected in the ice record.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/265/5180/1841

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#99

Post by PhasmaFelis »

nostrademons wrote: post #17
charles-salvia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the developments in exo-planet research along with discoveries like this over the past couple of years, I would conjecture that life is ridiculously common. But by life, I mean microbial life. I would imagine that multi-cellular life is much rarer, and life capable of reaching human-level intelligence and beyond is probably absurdly rare, on the level of something like one species per galaxy. It's all worthl…

I'm kinda curious if there's any evidence that would support or rule out intelligent life having existed on earth before. I mean, if humanity goes extinct and it's another 65 million years before another intelligent species evolves, what evidence would they have of our existence? All our buildings would've long since crumbled into dust or been crushed by plate tectonics. Metal will corrode and rust away after a few t…

I think strip mines wouldn't be too difficult to detect. Some of them are comparable in size to the ancient craters we've discovered. Maybe canals--I don't think there'd be much left, but maybe enough to notice an unnaturally straight depression running for hundreds of miles. I wonder if aqueducts and transport tunnels could survive the ages, in hard rock in a geologically inactive area; but I suppose the entrances would probably be buried in any case.

My personal nerd theory along those lines is there there may have been life on Earth before the giant impact that created the moon. All evidence of any sort of life whatsoever would have been buried under hundreds of miles of magma. It's very unlikely, as the Earth was so young at that point that it might not even have had a solid crust yet, but I find it compelling. :)

Re: Saturn moon 'able to support life'

#100

Post by civilian »

LrnByTeach wrote: post #68
civilian wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So-- there are caveats. A lot of deep sea life are able to see, and it's because deep sea life also generates their own light. It's a way to communicate to mates, and a way to notice prey, and a way to bait smaller predators. I also think that echolocation has potential to be equal or better to eyesight! Bats and dolphins do great with it, and I think that it's easy to think of echolocation as being a _visual_ stimul…

I was thinking very same issue for some time. Underwater species will have limitation to advance their Intelligence due to not having access to LAND to make all kind of TOOLS which led to Human Spices advancement . It seems we have a kind of proof at this time planet Earth. 'Long-finned pilot whale' have '37 Billion' Cerebral cortex Neurons , where as Human Spices have 21 Billion . I think due to their Water environm…

Yup :)

By the way, the all-caps in your message makes your post kind of confusing, and it almost sounds sarcastic? I'm just letting you know in case English isn't your first language. :)

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