Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#101

Post by Asooka » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 12:55 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #99

Arizhel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You may want it copying Windows, but I for one would switch away from whatever distro tries copying Windows, because I detest it. That's fine, but Linux is never going to achieve any significant marketshare (and thus get support from hardware and software makers) as long as it tries to standardize on weird UIs. Having some weird options for those who want to mess with them is great, just don't make them the standard…

Linux is not a singular entity. There is no standard Linux UI. There won't ever be a standard Linux UI so that's a meaningless thing to worry about. Individual distro's will pick whatever they want. Several have tried to copy Windows to various extent (with Lindows, later Linspire, being the most extreme example as they tried for binary compatibility via Wine). > If they adopted KDE instead, Linux would probably get…

> Linux is not a singular entity. There is no standard Linux UI. There won't ever be a standard Linux UI so that's a meaningless thing to worry about.

That's the entire problem! We have ONE standard kernel, granted with a few modifications on Android. We have one standard C library (several implementations for edge use cases). We have one standard C++ runtime (and the clang libc++ is completely compatible). On every layer of the stack we have one standard, with one standard implementation, except when you reach the top when it becomes and ungodly mess. Nothing really interoperates in a standard way. Hell, it took until 2006 IIRC to settle on one standard audio API - pulse. Before we run off to reimplement everything yet again, there should be standards of interoperability in place.

For example, why does Firefox not use the KDE open file dialog? I run KDE, I expect to get the KDE open file dialog not the GNOME one. Oh, it's because there's no standard "open a file" API call. Because every time someone reinvents the desktop, they reinvent it from the ground up without trying to interoperate. This is probably why Firefox also doesn't always obey my file associations set via Dolphin, the KDE file browser.

Yes, let's have unlimited customizability, but we need standardized interfaces for basic desktop functionality. A forest, rather than a dozen walled gardens.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#102

Post by Arizhel » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #99

Arizhel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You may want it copying Windows, but I for one would switch away from whatever distro tries copying Windows, because I detest it. That's fine, but Linux is never going to achieve any significant marketshare (and thus get support from hardware and software makers) as long as it tries to standardize on weird UIs. Having some weird options for those who want to mess with them is great, just don't make them the standard…

Linux is not a singular entity. There is no standard Linux UI. There won't ever be a standard Linux UI so that's a meaningless thing to worry about. Individual distro's will pick whatever they want. Several have tried to copy Windows to various extent (with Lindows, later Linspire, being the most extreme example as they tried for binary compatibility via Wine). > If they adopted KDE instead, Linux would probably get…

>There is no standard Linux UI.

This is completely wrong. It's like saying there's no standard init system. Except for a few weird exceptions like Slackware, there is: systemd, because all the mainstream distros have adopted it now. Similarly, there is a standard DE, and that's Gnome, because all the mainstream distros have adopted it (Debian, Fedora, OpenSuse, Ubuntu now).

As for alienation, they're alienating everyone who wants something that works like Windows, and they're alienating tons of Linux users who hate Gnome3, which is why we now have the ridiculous mess of not one, but TWO Gnome forks: MATE and Cinnamon, in addition to KDE, LXDE, and Xfce. KDE is not a "viable alternative" on most distros, as it's very poorly supported, if at all. It's not a first-class DE on any mainstream distro that I know of; within Ubuntu-land it's a separate "Kubuntu" spin that's not well supported, and within Mint-land it's the "Mint KDE Edition" which always lags behind the Cinnamon and MATE versions. I hear you can get it to work on Fedora, sorta. Sorry, but that does not make it equivalent to the support that Gnome enjoys. And as the other poster points out, many applications assume you're using Gnome, such as Firefox with its crappy Gnome file dialog.

>They're not doing this randomly.

No, they're doing it because Red Hat is pushing Gnome hard, and because there's a lot of trend-following in Linux without thinking about what's really good for the community and Linux adoption overall.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#103

Post by Arizhel » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

Asooka wrote: post #101

vidarh wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is not a singular entity. There is no standard Linux UI. There won't ever be a standard Linux UI so that's a meaningless thing to worry about. Individual distro's will pick whatever they want. Several have tried to copy Windows to various extent (with Lindows, later Linspire, being the most extreme example as they tried for binary compatibility via Wine). > If they adopted KDE instead, Linux would probably get…

> Linux is not a singular entity. There is no standard Linux UI. There won't ever be a standard Linux UI so that's a meaningless thing to worry about. That's the entire problem! We have ONE standard kernel, granted with a few modifications on Android. We have one standard C library (several implementations for edge use cases). We have one standard C++ runtime (and the clang libc++ is completely compatible). On every…

Yeah, it doesn't help that the Gnome developers have steadfastly refused to work with KDE or anyone else. KDE has made many attempts to reach out to them to improve interoperability, to no avail. As far as the Gnome devs are concerned, no other desktops should exist on Linux except theirs.

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#104

Post by everybodyknows » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #57

ploggingdev wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use the Mate Desktop Environment [1], it's pretty close to Gnome 2. [1] https://mate-desktop.org/

That is what I use these days, although I've switched to Mint instead of Ubuntu.

How are you liking Mint so far? Comparison with Cinnamon?

Re: Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here?

#105

Post by everybodyknows » Thu, Apr 13, 2017, 9:28 PM UTC

ploggingdev wrote: post #33

douche wrote: post #24

I miss Gnome 2 Ubuntu.

You can use the Mate Desktop Environment [1], it's pretty close to Gnome 2. [1] https://mate-desktop.org/

For a user who saves scarce vertical screen space by moving the desktop panel to the side, this is a worry:

  https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-panel/issues/157