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Remove United from your flight results

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Re: Remove United from your flight results

#131

Post by milesrout »

johnfn wrote: post #103
rm999 wrote: post #69

The comments in here are oddly fatalist about the whole thing. We put a lot of trust in airlines; and not just in safety or to get us somewhere, but we also give them an unusual number of legal protections once we're in their care. When the drama first started I kind of wrote it off: "this must have been a misunderstanding compounded by a single employee's stupidity". But when I found that it was not only condoned, b…

> Then, the inevitable outrage led to past stories resurfacing, with a pattern of absurd insensitivity (abused dogs, broken guitars, sexist clothing policies, etc). You don't think you'd be able to dredge up similarly bad stories for any other airline? Look, what United did on that flight was pretty awful. But the rest of this to me smacks of the typical rumor mill that spins up when a company has bad PR, which surfa…

Of course you would be able to come up with similarly bad stories for many other airlines. Especially American ones.

That doesn't excuse them. All American airlines suck. That problem should be fixed.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#132

Post by macintux »

perseusprime11 wrote: post #122
Mithaldu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

United acted illegally from the very get-go. Via https://np.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/64m8lg/why_is_... and more: > Lawyer here. This myth that passengers don't have rights needs to go away, ASAP. You are dead wrong when saying that United legally kicked him off the plane. > 1. First of all, it's airline spin to call this an overbooking. The statutory provision granting them the ability to deny boarding is a…

This is probably the reason United is going after the passenger's personal life. Their PR team is overworking on creating a different narrative instead of feeling remorseful.

Didn't news come out that the initial wave of personal muckraking was actually background information about a different doctor with a similar name?

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#133

Post by vinay427 »

milesrout wrote: post #131
johnfn wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then, the inevitable outrage led to past stories resurfacing, with a pattern of absurd insensitivity (abused dogs, broken guitars, sexist clothing policies, etc). You don't think you'd be able to dredge up similarly bad stories for any other airline? Look, what United did on that flight was pretty awful. But the rest of this to me smacks of the typical rumor mill that spins up when a company has bad PR, which surfa…

Of course you would be able to come up with similarly bad stories for many other airlines. Especially American ones. That doesn't excuse them. All American airlines suck . That problem should be fixed.

I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison, as US airlines are far more biased towards domestic flights which globally are held to a lower tier of service. That being said, I would still anecdotally evaluate them as of poorer quality than the better foreign airlines.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#134

Post by jakelazaroff »

terrestrial wrote: post #64
peteretep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general policy makes sense for United , they just got unlucky this time. A law requiring all bumping to be voluntary would fix this, and require United to come up with a system that wasn't just "meh, call security".

A law would not "fix" this. It's a workaround. Which law was this guy breaking to begin with? The problem is lack of scrutiny by the officers handling this. The process should have gone something like this: United: "Hey, we have this guy refusing the leave the airplane. Can you help us remove him?" Chicago PD: "Why won't he leave the airplane?" United: "He says he needs to catch this flight for something work-related…

Exactly. Law enforcement are supposed to do just that: enforce the law. Not provide muscle for multimillion dollar corporations.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#135

Post by Mtinie »

foxylad wrote: post #61
sitepodmatt wrote: post #10

United screwed up by not having a decent incentive system in place to avoid deplaning people. People have presented many options, including taking a ballpark figure on checkin, or whilst on the airplance a speaker announcement anyone to travel later for $800, wait a minute, $1000, $1200, okay great thanks folks.. That was extremely badly handled and shocking that no process was in place for this - as last minute crew…

Would renting a private jet have been a viable solution for United to get their four employees where they needed to go? I have no idea what it costs, but given they were in the hole for several thousand dollars in refunds, it might have saved them money as well as grief.

Hindsight is 20/20. A private plane charter would have been significantly cheaper and no one would have been the wiser.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#136

Post by sixothree »

mvpu wrote: post #125

Incidents like this are a wake up call to process driven cultures. If the flight crew really cared about the passenger, they would have handled it differently. If the CEO really cared, he would have personally apologized to the passenger and taken care of him by now. No amount of process and regulation can build a brand as much as culture does. That's why I'm a loyal Southwest customer. They've never let me down when…

More than once my plane has been late on southwest and every time my connecting flight waited for me to arrive before departing. What a nice way to end a trip.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#137

Post by jakelazaroff »

learn_more wrote: post #80
peteretep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general policy makes sense for United , they just got unlucky this time. A law requiring all bumping to be voluntary would fix this, and require United to come up with a system that wasn't just "meh, call security".

We don't need another regulation to solve this. Seems like the free market is going to handle it just fine.

Can we use the current regulations to punish United for breaking the law? No? Looks like we need another regulation.

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#138

Post by rl3 »

axoltl wrote: post #97
diminoten wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read rule 25, and once you realize that employees are booked as passengers when moved like this, you realize there's a whole procedure in place for bumping people involuntarily from flights.

That's actually not true. From 14 CFR 250.1, definitions: "Confirmed reserved space means space on a specific date and on a specific flight and class of service of a carrier which has been requested by a passenger, including a passenger with a “zero fare ticket,”" "Zero fare ticket means a ticket acquired without a substantial monetary payment such as by using frequent flyer miles or vouchers" ... "A zero fare ticket…

>Which means the employees cannot be counted as having confirmed reserved space.

I believe your interpretation is incorrect. This was discussed in another thread last night.[0]

Assuming 14 CFR 250 even applies (there's multiple reasons why it may not), the explicit exclusion of employees from the definition of a zero fare ticket is immaterial due to employees otherwise satisfying the definition of confirmed reserved space.[1]

The critical point is that the definition merely includes zero fare tickets, which are explicitly defined as not being employees. That does not mean employees cannot otherwise satisfy the definition of confirmed reserved space.

Deadheading employees are not involved in the operation of the aircraft, so they may be considered passengers. The employee travel passes used reserve a specific date, flight and class of service at their request.

Due to the urgency of that particular situation, the passes used were positive-space, also having higher seating priority than paying passengers. While that sucks, the alternative is that an entire flight is delayed or canceled, with many passengers on that flight missing their connections. Those missed connections then bump people off subsequent flights, creating a cascade of chaos. That's why deadheading flight crew have priority over ticketed passengers in certain situations.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14095224

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&...

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#139

Post by [deleted] »

perseusprime11 wrote: post #117
rm999 wrote: post #69

The comments in here are oddly fatalist about the whole thing. We put a lot of trust in airlines; and not just in safety or to get us somewhere, but we also give them an unusual number of legal protections once we're in their care. When the drama first started I kind of wrote it off: "this must have been a misunderstanding compounded by a single employee's stupidity". But when I found that it was not only condoned, b…

In terms of culture, United needs to learn from Southwest. Southwest has great culture internally as well as externally. United has bunch of slogans as culture. Their CEO has no clue about creating a culture that delights customers. He blamed the customer in the letter and then blamed it on system failure but never on him. He failed to create a customer centric culture and instead fostered a culture that perceives cu…

[deleted]

Re: Remove United from your flight results

#140

Post by vinay427 »

braveo wrote: post #102
Buttons840 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? What do you mean by "walk down the plane"?

It's involuntary if they don't let you on the place, but if you willingly walk off the plane it's voluntary. If what the person is saying is true, then technically speaking, the only one who could demand cash would be the doctor.

I disagree. United chose the other passengers who were to be removed as well, and so none of the chosen passengers volunteered to leave the flight as there was no alternative (default) option presented in which the passengers would remain on the flight. Threatening to call the authorities if someone doesn't leave doesn't qualify as eliciting a voluntary exit.
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