Live data from Hacker News

Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

nationalobserver.com

451–460 of 522 posts

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#451

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

I wish more people would understand the deep but simple meaning and truth behind those words. At least it gives me a glimmer of hope when I see someone else thinking that way.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Push as much co2 as possible into the air as quickly as possible to change global conditions enough to kill all plants at the same time This makes no sense. How exactly an abundance of CO2 will "kill all plants" given that they are thriving on it? Let's say temperature rises further, like +10C rise. Desertification may kill some plants, sure. In the meantime, huge swaths of Siberia and Canada will stop being permafr…

As quickly as possible is the key. In the past any changes in temperature were much more gradual.

We're already rather close to "as quickly as possible" :(

But plant life? Are you thinking phytoplankton?

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#453
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade-off: Humanity as a species ends. Which gadget do you feel is worth that?

Humanity as a species won't end due to climate change. That's a ridiculous assertion. Full scale nuclear war probably couldn't wipe us out completely. Global warming can't either. Billions might die, but humanity will survive almost certainly.

Maybe, maybe not. If you want to split hairs then, how many billion people do you think it's acceptable to kill or cause to suffer so we can have iPhones?

People are very bad at estimating the probability of catastrophic events. We base our estimates on things that have happened in the past, but that doesn't help predict things that have never happened before. Hundreds of millions of years of pent up carbon have never been released into the atmosphere over the course of a couple centuries before. It is hubris to the point of suicidal to think anyone can predict the effect it will have on a complex, nonlinear system like the global climate.

Sure, maybe it will be fine. But the burden of proof should be on the people claiming that it's going to be fine, not on those recommending caution before screwing with something we don't understand.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#454

This is very simple, but something most of the HN people won't be able to do. STOP FLYING! Passenger numbers have gone up in a step change with CO2 count over the last 50 years, contrails compound the effect. The sad thing is - you will all look at this message and think. Why should I have to change? Why me, surely someone else must fix this? Don't wait for governments, don't wait for industry. Make individual choice…

What's the alternative? As an EU company, if I need to do business in the US then I can't say "let's schedule a meeting in a year while I go on a boat cruise". Virtual meetings only work to an extent -- they lack a human interaction touch. I suppose I can take a train if I go on holiday somewhere in the EU, but insane prices for international trains as well as other shenanigans are not making it an attractive choice.

> What's the alternative? As an EU company, if I need to do business in the US then I can't say "let's schedule a meeting in a year while I go on a boat cruise". Virtual meetings only work to an extent -- they lack a human interaction touch.

That is one way to look at it.

Supposing we said, physical meetings only work to an extent -- they pollute the atmosphere. Therefore there is no alternative but to make virtual meetings work.

I put it to you that virtual meetings would work well - if the technology isn't quite there yet, it would be rapidly improved - if we took the attitude that we have to make them work, instead of taking the attitude that we have to travel.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exaggeration doesn't help the argument that anthropogenic climate change is a serious problem. I am not suggesting that we shouldn't care. Maybe you're right that there's still a chance of averting catastrophic impact if "we get our act together over the next decade". That's what I've been arguing for decades. But in recent years, the signs of increasing rate of change and positive feedbacks have become much clearer.…

> What are the chances that the US will cut CO2 emissions by 50% in a decade or two? I'd say that it's about zero. I agree. But so does everyone else. So why point it out unless to argue in favor of despair? Placing a sufficient price on CO2 emissions would probably do it. Odds of getting our legislatures to do this may be slim, but why not try? > Exaggeration doesn't help the argument that anthropogenic climate chan…

I think that we agree on the facts.

I just think that focusing on human impacts has the best chance. Indeed, your examples are all about human impacts.

When I read "kill the planet", it seems about much more than that. Maybe that's just my ecohippie spiritualism ;)

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At present, the rate of extinction of species is estimated at 100 to 1,000 times higher than the "base" or historically typical rate of extinction (in terms of the natural evolution of the planet) and also the current rate of extinction is, therefore, 10 to 100 times higher than any of the previous mass extinctions in the history of Earth. From wikipedia, Holocene extinction. By what other metric could you possibly…

Yes, major extinction event. No doubt about it. But killing off plants? Can you cite something for that? It seems to me that preventing collapse of human civilization is the thing to focus on. It's what most people will care about, right? And it's far more likely than total global ecosystem collapse. I mean, we may see the first signs within a few years. The "end of all life on this planet" is something that humanity…

The next sentence in the page is "It is also the only known mass extinction of plants". I didn't include it because it says citation needed, though. Every scenario in which life is endangered globally involves harsh feedback loops and is therefore extremely hypothetical and unstudied, but the possibilities do exist. Climate change simulation is a best case of a best case scenario- how could you possibly account realistically for the impact of losing biodiversity on that scale?

The short term problem is probably ocean acidification, although 3+ degrees will directly kill a ton of food production and plant species. Ocean acidification is usually thought of in terms of corals and shellfish but it can also lead to a collapse of the ocean food chain when nearly all zooplankton die. Oceanic plants can survive acidic conditions and will thrive without predators or competition, but that leaves out the fact that the ocean will now be full of dead, rotting things. There are an incredible number of ways that scenario can become a nightmare. Poison by toxins, infection caused by too-rapid growth, explosion of predators as they feed on detritus, etc. A healthy population is required to survive a huge climate change, and there are a million ways for that to go wrong.

The major catastrophe would be 5+ degree warming, which has the potential to collapse current ocean circulation patterns including the nino cycle. That would cause major devastation to biodiversity, deoxygenation of the ocean, and kill most life by land area and ocean volume. Then the isolated patches of life would have to deal with extreme weather, air quality, acidity changes, water and temperature changes. The survivors would have to stabilize the biosphere and live for millions of years with an unprecedented lack of biodiversity, until they could evolve. Species die spontaneously all the time. Tasmanian devils developed contagious cancer.

The Sahara used to be a jungle. The wind changed a little bit, and converted everything to sand. As the climate changes, areas will be destroyed- even if they stay green, biodiversity will be massively reduced and those places will no longer be sustainable long term. Even if rain starts falling in the Sahara, it will be decades or centuries before it grows.

In a normal extinction event growth is moderated over tens or thousands of years, in a smooth transition to other species. We have a century until we reach the same changes.

Say you have a field with grass, moss and cows. Geological warming kills the grass over a hundred years, and the moss slowly grows in it's place, and all is good. If anthropogenic warming kills all the grass overnight, The cows eat all the moss except for a little hidden under a rock, which is killed when a cow dies on top of it and blocks the sun.

>It seems to me that preventing collapse of human civilization is the thing to focus on. It's what most people will care about, right? And it's far more likely than total global ecosystem collapse. I mean, we may see the first signs within a few years. The "end of all life on this planet" is something that humanity will never get near, because it'll be long gone before it happens.

Wow, that may actually change my feelings on reading this sentiment. It's still a little horrifying that we have to wait until humans are affected, but I do understand how someone could look around and say "Yep, still looks alive to me!". If focusing on the threat to humanity engenders the threat as a whole, I'm all for it.

Of course, the breakneck speed of extinction is still horrifying. Each day means hundreds of species that I will never see, and I'm already pissed about missing giant sloths. We only killed those 10,000 years ago.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get it you are mad. But you anger makes no sense: your world view is winning. Opinions like the one you replied to are definitely in the minority. People value their iPhones and disney cruises way more than the natural environment.

>People value their iPhones and disney cruises way more than the natural environment This is a emotional statement rather than a practical one. I think you'd probably get people to give those up if it would have a measurable, provable impact that wasn't 200 or 300 years in a possible future. The real bulk of emissions are caused by the everyday use of things that make modern life and the current population levels pos…

There is an incredible amount of waste involved in the "everyday things" you listed. Surely it would make a difference if that were cut down. Is it out of the question that a fairly comfortable life can be had by all without destroying the natural environment?

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#458
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it calories or mass? I.e. cow eats 10kg of grass to produce 1kg of beef, we eat 10kg of beaf to gain 1kg of weight? And in any case it does not really answer the question.

My recollection is of calories but I cannot find a source for that right now. Regardless, my point was that if you grow plants to feed to cattle to feed to humans you are taking more resources than if you grow plants to feed to humans. However, it is complex - it depends a lot on the landscape. http://www.economist.com/blogs/feastandfamine/2013/12/livest...

You also can't ignore the energy cost of running the farm and transportation.

I suspect that it may actually be more efficient to skip pesticide applications and harvesters, and use domesticated insects to harvest grains and fly those food calories directly to a local processing facility.

Certain species are already natural grain harvesting machines. Certain species are already natural pest predators. Those could be exploited and bred for a purpose. Humans plant the corn. Domesticated insect-predator insects patrol the fields and protect the corn from unauthorized eating before it is ready to harvest. They return to the hive, breed for the next season, and get eaten. Domesticated harvester insects then mature, fly out to eat the corn, and then fly back to the hive, breed for the next season, and get eaten.

Whatever is not eaten directly by humans can be fed to farmed fish or poultry.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the reality is self-actualisation / spirituality are as out of reach for many now as they were years ago when we were 'poorer'.

Self-actualization and spirituality seldom go hand in hand with wealth. Poor people have improved spirituality than wealthier people. Wealth draws your focus away from those things onto pleasures like sleeping around, or owning the latest i-device because it's the latest. Hence Jesus saying it's easier to thread a fishing line through a needle than for a wealthy person to find the Kingdom of Heaven.

Possibly, though it's often more complex than that. For example, the Gautama Buddha was born into the aristocracy, but renounced his social station[1]. It would be reasonable to suggest that his education and experience of luxury were necessary for his later understanding of the nature of suffering.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha#Biography

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#460
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a % of CO2 emissions, how much is flying?

I'm not sure if I trust the numbers, but it looks like airplanes produce about 1.5% of the total global "CO2 equivalent" GHG emissions. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss... says that transport is 14% of total global GHG emissions. And http://www.atag.org/facts-and-figures.html says that airplanes are 12% of transport emissions.

I certainly don't trust the numbers. There is common sense right?

If we stick water vapour and co2 above the weather layer in the atmosphere, it will act like a pane of glass in a greenhouse? Right? You can't rain anything down from 35000ft can you?

Look at the warming graphs/animations, most warming happens in the northern hemisphere (where most planes fly), since about 1970, which is when air travel became popular accross the northern hemisphere.

Call me crazy (I know it's dangerous to make assertions without 150% of the facts) but that seems to me like an obvious thing that would affect warming. Please don't reply with some fact based rebuttal - hasn't helped so far.

Post reply on HN