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Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

josephg.com

241–250 of 1001 posts

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#241
Lately I've been playing around with Red language and their view feature. Easiest way I've created an interface before. The Red language is really interesting and cool, but their view construct is the coolest. If you haven't played around with it, it's worth about try at least.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#242

FWIW, we're working on https://github.com/nidium/Nidium presicely to fix this. A new kind of browser engine, not based on any existing engine, allowing developers to use a subset of the web (webgl, 2d, layout) without being forced to use a bloated ecosystem (and which also works on mobile and low end device). Previous HN discussion : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6314961

I've applaud the effort but I don't think I would use this over electron. Without HTML/css how do you make an interface? With canvas directly? I can't find any examples other than three.js stuff.

nidium has a markup language (XML based), a layout engine and will soon support Yoga https://facebook.github.io/yoga/ in order to bring flexbox.

Also nidium focus on mobile devices.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#243
post #38

It's appropriate to call Chrome an OS-like platform, and it's quite convenient to ship apps with, but it's not "Flash for the desktop". As someone who is opposed to bloat but sometimes appreciates convenience, I think Electron is getting a bad rap here for something that was screwed up by the JS app developers. Go to Electron's website and download the demo (called API Demos). It's 3 processes and consumes 0.0 CPU on…

Blog author here. Thats a fair criticism. I wanted to pick on Spotify and Atom more in my blog post, but both Spotify and Atom have cleaned up their act. I couldn't get either one to reproducibly use lots of CPU. Props to everyone involved in fixing that. But I'd also argue that Flash could always be written to be efficient too. The problem with flash was never the little games people made. The problem was that one t…

> ... I couldn't get either one [Spotify or Atom] to reproducibly use lots of CPU. Props to everyone involved in fixing that.

It seems deceiving to conceal that information when your call to action is to ditch Electron for the sake of performance.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#244

Here's the thing. You know what the alternative to all of these Electron apps coming out is? If your answer is "A native Cocoa/WPF app", you are on another planet, the answer is, "It wouldn't exist at all". Nobody in the last 5-10 years cared about writing Desktop apps before Electron came along, there's basically zero money in it, and it's massively expensive, both in terms of actual dev time per feature (easily 10x…

> You know what the alternative to all of these Electron apps coming out is? A single page web app? That's all most of these are. Particularly the Slack/Hipchat/Discords of the world. > People are excited about the Desktop again If by desktop, you mean "need to be connected to mains power to run for more than 10 minutes", yeah, people are excited for desktops again. Electron only really makes Javascript developers ha…

>> As a consumer, I fail to see the value in having to download large single page webapps that are equivalent (or worse) than their online counterparts.

I use the Slack app for Windows, and the value for me is that it gets its own easily identifiable presence in my Windows task bar.

I have a (self-inflicted) problem with tab proliferation, and because I rely heavily on Slack, it's just way more convenient to use the self-contained version than to have it running in a tab buried in one of my browser windows.

It doesn't bother me at all that the Slack app is an over glorified web browser running the Slack web client.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#245
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I write Electron apps and call myself an engineer, because I am an engineer. Could you please explain why am I being hilarious?

Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously? If yes, what in earth makes you think writing Electron apps is a good ide…

> Have you been trained as an engineer, in a country where "engineer" is a very specific thing and is held to higher expectations, including the possibility of having your title taken away by your peers if you do not respect your duty to, first and foremost, your users and/or society, like every country that takes the title of engineer seriously?

No country trains software engineers in the way you describe.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#246

Long time javascript programmers are the loser (if they never learned more than javascript) they don't know how to programming an almost perfect program. That is the reason why they using javascript on Desktop. The average programmer learns just one fucking language but being a good programmer you need at least to learn 2+ languages. That you can see the performance issues in your stack. I started with PHP and javasc…

Whilst I disagree with the tone of this comment, there is value in the content.

It behooves all developers to learn multiple languages, there is particular benefit to learning languages with differing paradigms.

Even if you only use one language for formal development, the mental agility that thinking in more than one language gives is super valuable

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I'm curious, why would you not use your native language for the content on your page?

nidium is an open source tech project not a local product.

Starred because your answers here are beautiful.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#248
> Maybe we should be buying slower computers so we feel the pain. Facebook has been internally intentionally slowing down their office internet once a week to help build empathy with their users in other 3rd world internet speed countries (coughAustraliacough).

Yep. I've just got back from spending over a month on a ship in the middle of the Atlantic, with two very flakey 256kbps satellite connections (capped to like 125kbps each as well). Shared between roughly 50 people. Our policy is to let anything through (it's a research ship, so being able to look up stuff on the internet is a must) but aggressively apply QoS rules and caching to the network. With the sheer amount of applications that assume they have a low-latency high-bandwidth connection which they can open hundreds of TCP connections on, just tweaking the firewall / bandwidth shaper / application control is a full-time job just by itself.

First observation, relevant to Slack: Before we locked down the firewall, Slack running on 2 laptops was by far the highest traffic application. Even though the few Slack users just had the client open but minimized - not actually using it. It was persistently using 20kbps, all day every day, until we blocked it outright. What the hell other stuff does it have to do other than download text!? Slack / other devs using Electron oughtta test their apps on extremely slow shared internet.

Second comment, relevant to Facebook intentionally slowing down office internet: The Mobile Facebook site (m.facebook.com) was by far the nicest to use on our severely degraded uplinks. No timeouts, pages took under 10 seconds to load, we didn't have to wait several minutes of blank page while another F%$£ing web font that's Arial but with the letter T slightly more aesthetically pleasing to download. No massively parallel loading of resources. Good use of caching.

It struck me that a lot of our problems were problems because devs never have to deal with that kind of crappy internet, it's not an edge case that gets tested. It results in people unable to load important stuff like Google, GMail, Outlook web app, and as such their products lose users. No matter how much we tweak our network internally, even restricting the internet use to a single computer doesn't result in usable web apps anymore. This is probably something that we share with third-world internet; a much larger market than our "research ship" niche.

Finally: People who put company logos in their email signatures hate other people. Base64-encoded PNG images make one-line email responses increase in size by like a factor of 100.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the user experience is already great, so what's the gain? Electron and the web clearly make a first class app platform on desktop. EDIT: thanks for the downvotes. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how electron is keeping Slack and Spotify from building a massive business and how their desktop users find the experience so bad they don't use the tools obsessively. Clearly there are things to improve w/ Electron (en…

As a paying customer, both Spotify and Slack are relativity shitty experiences. I pay for both despite their poor quality software and bad UI/UX, not because of it.

I pay for Spotify but I don't see it's poor UI/UX problems. The sections make sense, the color contrast is good, browsing through an artists albums and songs makes sense, the playback functions bind perfectly to the media buttons on my physical keyboard. What else could I want?

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#250
I understand why you'd want to wring every last efficiency out of your computer, but I run Slack, Spotify, and many windows of VS Code on my bottom of the line MacBook all day, frequently on battery power, and don't have a problem. What's the big deal?
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