Live data from Hacker News

Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

reuters.com

231–240 of 361 posts

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#231
I worked for years on the modernization of a critical banking infrastructure system. The problems are manifold. The biggest problem is overall architectural impedance mismatch - switching from a batch system (most of those old COBOL mainframe apps are batch systems) to a service-oriented architecture. This makes incremental replacement extremely difficult. But a cutover? On a system that moves more money in a day than the GDP of most countries? A failure could put the entire banking world in a tailspin, cause an economic crash.

Next, there's a lot of business logic basically embedded in the COBOL, or even at lower layers. For example, lots of banking files are in EBCDIC, a different character set from ASCII. Except there are lots of different EBCDIC variants, and there's no good way to tell which one you're viewing just by looking at the file. So you have to reverse-engineer COBOL to figure out the "correct" meaning of a given file.

The problems go on and on. When I see people in the startup world rolling their eyes at the "incompetence" of the enterprise world, I take it to mean they've never actually worked on a truly hard problem in their lives.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#232
post #128
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies never think of the old guys as the ones to implement the new system - that's a job for the "enterprise experts" Exactly this is why rewrites fail. The challenge of a rewrite is not in mapping the core architecture and core use case, it's mapping all the edge cases and covering all the end user needs. You need people intimately familiar with the old system to make sure the new system does all the weird stu…

all features and edge cases should have a test. if possible also have tests for all the bugs ever found in the old system. it helps if the tests are not too coupled with the code and are well documented. a test could be making an entry where deb and cred dont match. or trying to enter an extra decimal. and if the system adds two decimals corectly.

I should count all the grains of rice in my lunch, too.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As of the 2010 census, the ethnic makeup and population of San Francisco included: 390,387 Whites (48.1%), 267,915 Asians (33.3%), 48,870 African Americans (6.1%), 4,024 Native Americans (0.5%), 3,359 Pacific Islanders (0.4%), 53,021 from other races (6.6%), and 37,659 from two or more races (4.7%). > Atlanta 2010 census: 211,365 Whites (38.4%), 28,071 Asians (5.1%), 286,126 African Americans (54.0%), ... So you me…

You seem to not understand the segregation in the South. If you're black, you're not going to be well-accepted if you move into an upper middle-class all-white neighborhood. Yeah, there's lots of black people in Atlanta, but they live "on the other side of the tracks", in all-black (and poor) neighborhoods. Of course, racism exists everywhere, but it's generally worse in the South. A black guy moving into a nice neig…

Atlanta, in particular, is one place where it is OK to be successful and black, or gay and black, or nerdy and black, or just whatever.

Not all black people are poor and living amidst crime; you get to learn that when you live somewhere where they make up more than 2% of the population.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#234

Cobol expert = $1,000 an hour rate. Great niche, but eventually will get replaced. Awesome marketing and PR for his company Cobol Cowboys ( http://cobolcowboys.com . > His wife Eileen came up with the name in a reference to "Space Cowboys," a 2000 movie about a group of retired Air Force pilots called in for a trouble-shooting mission in space. The company's slogan? "Not our first rodeo."

We have 50,000 lines of RPG code we need to replace over the next decade. Since the last RPG dev at our company is over 65 years old and can retire at any moment. It's going to be funny when we replace it with Java and our business guys ask why it runs much slower.

There's a local company where I am that still runs an AS/400. They're hiring a junior dev with 1 year experience in both AS/400 and RPG. Would you recommend taking the job? I imagine it's pretty good job security. On the other hand, you have to program in RPG and Basic all day.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#235
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As of the 2010 census, the ethnic makeup and population of San Francisco included: 390,387 Whites (48.1%), 267,915 Asians (33.3%), 48,870 African Americans (6.1%), 4,024 Native Americans (0.5%), 3,359 Pacific Islanders (0.4%), 53,021 from other races (6.6%), and 37,659 from two or more races (4.7%). > Atlanta 2010 census: 211,365 Whites (38.4%), 28,071 Asians (5.1%), 286,126 African Americans (54.0%), ... So you me…

"Everyone in a red state is racist while I live in a post-racial utopia." Or something like that, I'd imagine.

In the South, whites don't mind if blacks are around, as long as they're not uppity. In the North, whites don't mind if blacks are uppity, as long as they're not around.

Segregation is worse in the north than in the south.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#236
post #211
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but my impression is they're so ephemeral they might not have a big market share.

Wait you mean Rust and Go aren't going to be around 30 years from now?!

Go probably will be, but it's still a niche. Rust, the jury is still hearing evidence.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#237
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emulate the mainframe and make a modern abstraction interface over the platform. We investigated this option for some IBM 360 COBOL code for a project I was running. We were a very small team and were market consumers (not implementers) of the original system which got open sourced in a panic. We eventually chose not too - but seriously considered it. If I were the owners (the Fed) I would have.

This doesn't help if part of your goal is to have a system not written in COBOL. Emulating the older hardware and OS gives you an even more complex system that's harder to hire people to work on.

It helps for the first stage - getting the platform onto a more sustainable environment. Once the interface exists and has full coverage, parts of the backend can begin migration without a doomed-to-fail 'big bang' rewrite.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#238
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't help if part of your goal is to have a system not written in COBOL. Emulating the older hardware and OS gives you an even more complex system that's harder to hire people to work on.

It helps for the first stage - getting the platform onto a more sustainable environment. Once the interface exists and has full coverage, parts of the backend can begin migration without a doomed-to-fail 'big bang' rewrite.

Does it really help? What does it cost to build a trustworthy emulator for an ancient system that you don't own the source for? What would it cost to just migrate your legacy applications to a newer mainframe that IBM supports?

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#239

And as long as you fit the "correct" demographics for living in the south.

> As of the 2010 census, the ethnic makeup and population of San Francisco included: 390,387 Whites (48.1%), 267,915 Asians (33.3%), 48,870 African Americans (6.1%), 4,024 Native Americans (0.5%), 3,359 Pacific Islanders (0.4%), 53,021 from other races (6.6%), and 37,659 from two or more races (4.7%). > Atlanta 2010 census: 211,365 Whites (38.4%), 28,071 Asians (5.1%), 286,126 African Americans (54.0%), ... So you me…

Pretty sure when the OP referenced 1/2 acre backyards and $130k-$200k they were not talking about Atlanta.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#240
post #235
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everyone in a red state is racist while I live in a post-racial utopia." Or something like that, I'd imagine.

In the South, whites don't mind if blacks are around, as long as they're not uppity. In the North, whites don't mind if blacks are uppity, as long as they're not around. Segregation is worse in the north than in the south.

Lol, I heard it differently, 'In South they are supposed to hate us in theory but not in practice, in north they are suppose to love us in theory but not in practice.'
Post reply on HN