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How real are real numbers? (2004)

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241–250 of 275 posts

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try to physicalize countability. Start counting the naturals: 1, 2, 3, ... At future timelike infinity you'll reach infinity. Now for the reals. Your goal is to step from 0 to 1, by way of 0.1, 0.01, and so forth. 0 0.0........ At future timelike infinity you still haven't stopped adding in zeroes to the right of the decimal point. In the first case, at any finite time before \breve{i}^+ you will have counted ou…

> I'll try to physicalize countability. > Start counting the naturals: 1, 2, 3, ... > At future timelike infinity you'll reach infinity. > Now for the reals. Your goal is to step from 0 to 1, by way of 0.1, 0.01, and so forth. > 0 0.0........ > At future timelike infinity you still haven't stopped adding in zeroes to the right of the decimal point. > In the first case, at any finite time before \breve{i}^+ you will h…

> but fortunately the proofs are pretty straigtforward which give a kind of «intuition» around this.

It is only straightforward once you accepted infinity and all other definitions/description based on infinity.

If you, like me, cannot accept infinity, then all the proofs/descriptions that contain infinity become apparent non-sensical.

>> Start counting the naturals: 1, 2, 3, ... >> At future timelike infinity you'll reach infinity.

This highlights the flaw. You reach infinity with infinity. Nothing is really being said about infinity. But somehow if you accepted the understanding infinity here, the rest of thesis such as cantor's diagonal argument may seem to be natural, except you forget that you really didn't know what infinity is.

All property of infinity cannot be finitely described. So anything about infinity is built on top of infinity. Turtle all the way down (or up), and we don't really know what it is.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#242
post #239
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sidesteps the difficulty by making the math itself (at least for the time being) much more difficult, and that is the reason it was rejected by most mathematicians in the Hilbert/Brouwer debates. Because here's the question: suppose you can't philosophically justify the "existence" of the real numbers, yet they coincide perfectly with observation and result in math that is much simpler than constructive math. Shou…

I think you're right on the money bringing Turing into this. I don't have a real, formal horse in this race, but the way that I have things arranged in my mind is that these are all disagreements on the notion two things in logical foundations: the need to consider time/resources and the conception of logical systems as closed or open. Brouwer and Hilbert accept that time is a factor, but handle it in different impli…

> I think you're right on the money bringing Turing into this.

Well, his most famous paper, the one in he was first discovered the essence of what computation is (rather than merely asking what functions can be computed by a "definite procedure"), was named On Computable Numbers, and he uses the very problem of the real numbers as a segue into the more general topic of computation.

> Free choice can't be modeled formally by "Turing machines" because we possess a means for writing them all down. On the other hand, if I give you the trace of a Turing machine you have no (finite) means to predict it so "Turing machine traces" do provide the largeness you need. I don't really know how to handle the fact that someone might want to form a bijection between the two.

I don't think there is any such bijection (if only for the cardinality argument you mention), but that it turns out (thanks to halting), that lawful and lawless sequences are equally opaque: it is as impossible to determine (using finite means) whether two lawful sequences are equal as it is to determine whether two lawless sequences are, which is all that's required (I think) for the theory. Therefore the same idea that Brouwer had in mind does not really require lawless sequences (which, I think, he wouldn't have introduced if he'd known about halting).

> Turing showed that if you take working computationally very seriously that you will run into open-endedness and time-as-resource constraints very quickly. Programming is a long exercise in discovering just have very seriously you have to take both of those things (interfaces, abstraction on one side, resources, human patience on the other).

It's a bit more complicated, as Turing himself -- in his published conversations with Wittgenstein -- opposed intuitionism as a foundation, believing that math neither has nor requires one true formal foundation. After all, Formalism is also finitistic, and you can just as well use a program to prove a theorem about (classical) real numbers using finite means; there's no need to construct -- i.e. give specific meaning to -- each real number. That was Hilbert's point: it is enough to reason about mathematical proposition in a finitary manner, and there's no actual need to construct the objects in their domain of discourse with finitary means.

> Brouwer and intuitionism are subsequently having a bit of a resurgence in mechanized proving.

Yes, but I think the relationship is more complicated. Again, a mechanical prover can prove classical propositions -- by using deduction rules -- just as it can prove intuitionistic propositions. The resurgence with respect to mechanical provers, as far as I understand, has two reasons: 1. it is easier to create a tiny universal core for a mechanical prover based on intuitionsitic logic, and classical logic can then be built on top of that. 2. much of the research on the theory of functional programming rests on the desire (explicitly stated by Martin-Löf) to unify programming and constructive math. I personally find this approach misguided for various reasons (I'm not a mathematician or a logician, so I see this from a practicing programmer's perspective), but I can understand the appeal.

> there's something fun in trying to imagine just how profoundly computers may yet still impact our understanding of the world.

Oh, absolutely. Once Turing realized that computation is in a very strong sense a fundamental natural phenomenon, he understood the many implications (on logic, AI, biology and physics).

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try to physicalize countability. Start counting the naturals: 1, 2, 3, ... At future timelike infinity you'll reach infinity. Now for the reals. Your goal is to step from 0 to 1, by way of 0.1, 0.01, and so forth. 0 0.0........ At future timelike infinity you still haven't stopped adding in zeroes to the right of the decimal point. In the first case, at any finite time before \breve{i}^+ you will have counted ou…

Infinite defined as not finite is meaningless. For example, infinity is not really a number in a conventional sense. What it is is not clear other than it is not finite. A real number with infinite precision is equally meaningless. (Above are not directly related to your comments. I simply like to summarize my thought). Now to your comment. You can start counting from 0 by 2s, you'll never hit 1, but that doesn't sho…

Counting integers from 0 by 2s and never hitting 1 (or 3 or 5 ...) still results in a finite number of natural numbers counted in finite time, skipping a finite number of natural numbers at each step. How many reals do you have to skip between 0.0 and 2.0 and between 2.0 and 4.0 ?

Returning to my previous attempt, you could think of instead a successor function; for any finite natural number the immediately adjacent natural number can be found in finite time. For any real number, the immediately adjacent real number cannot be found in finite time because the step from one real number to the next is infinitesimally small.

All of these examples are "de-generalizations" of the mapping argument. Counting integers from 0 by 2s maps bijectively onto the natural numbers. The naturals map injectively and surjectively onto the reals; you exhaust all the naturals counting between 0.0 and 1.0, or 1.0 and 2.0, or even between 0.01 and 0.011.

"A real number with infinite precision is equally meaningless": uhm, integration of infinitesimals (dS, dV, ...) ?

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no infinitesimals in the reals. You can define a mathematical structure containing infinitesimals [0], but it's not the reals. [0] Specifically, the dual numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_number

Interesting. How do you describe the difference between two successive real numbers?

> How do you describe the difference between two successive real numbers?

There is no such things as «two successive real numbers».

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#245
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sidesteps the difficulty by making the math itself (at least for the time being) much more difficult, and that is the reason it was rejected by most mathematicians in the Hilbert/Brouwer debates. Because here's the question: suppose you can't philosophically justify the "existence" of the real numbers, yet they coincide perfectly with observation and result in math that is much simpler than constructive math. Shou…

Wonderful to know that Hilbert was a finitist, and that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finitism is an official camp. Without knowing too much about about the subject, I've vaguely wondered about this idea for a long time, now, but I figured it likely an un-respectable position. I think it's too bad that beginners are often shielded from controversies in foundations. Within the past few years I ran across an alternate…

Yep, and as you can see in that Wikipedia article, both Brouwer and Hilbert were finitists. It is not that it is an unrespectable opinion as much as mathemticians these days -- from what little I know -- are not generally expected to hold any dogmatic opinion on philosophical foundations, but maybe that attitude will shift again.

> I think it's too bad that beginners are often shielded from controversies in foundations.

Mathematicians generally shouldn't worry about foundations, as it is the intention of foundations to stay hidden -- except in cases where the foundation requires a rewrite of much of math, as in the case of Brouwer's intuitionism, but constructive math is pretty advanced anyway. Foundations are usually the concern of logicians, but from what little I've seen in online discussions, it seems like many logicians aren't interested in philosophy, either, and that's a real shame.

> I ran across an alternate approach to calculus, which if I recall correctly, achieves the same basic results, but without the same notion of infinitely small slices and so on

There's constructive analysis[1], which recreates analysis within the framework of constructive math (by finite means etc.), and there's also non-standard calculus[2] (which I know nothing about) that makes treat infinitesimals as actual numbers, which may be the opposite of what you meant, but maybe not -- I saw something about there being constructive versions of non-standard analysis, too.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_analysis

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_calculus

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#246
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about phrases that specify some numbers on Thursdays, and another numbers when Moon is in second quarter? Would you mind producing such a phrase? > What about phrases that some people agree specifies a number, while other people think it's another number, and yet another people just aren't sure? > What about phrases that specify one and the same number for a specific person, but once that person reached age of…

> Would you mind producing such a phrase? Sure: "Current quarter of the Moon". Or "How Giants scored last season". Or "One, if P=NP, zero otherwise". Well, I see your point, if we limit our phrases to only formal language, then you're right.

> "Current quarter of the Moon". Or "How Giants scored last season"

These sentences describe functions, not numbers.

> "One, if P=NP, zero otherwise".

This value is a constant. It doesn't change through time. We simply don't know what it is.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infinite defined as not finite is meaningless. For example, infinity is not really a number in a conventional sense. What it is is not clear other than it is not finite. A real number with infinite precision is equally meaningless. (Above are not directly related to your comments. I simply like to summarize my thought). Now to your comment. You can start counting from 0 by 2s, you'll never hit 1, but that doesn't sho…

Counting integers from 0 by 2s and never hitting 1 (or 3 or 5 ...) still results in a finite number of natural numbers counted in finite time, skipping a finite number of natural numbers at each step. How many reals do you have to skip between 0.0 and 2.0 and between 2.0 and 4.0 ? Returning to my previous attempt, you could think of instead a successor function; for any finite natural number the immediately adjacent…

> How many reals do you have to skip between 0.0 and 2.0 and between 2.0 and 4.0 ?

Here you sneaked the concept of reals in. Remember reals are defined on top of infinity. You can't have reals if we are still debating what infinity is. There are infinite amount of numbers between 2.0 and 4.0, in the same sense there are infinite amount of numbers in the natural set.

Your successor function defines any finite natural number, it does not define infinity. In the rational counting scheme, we can reach any number within any finite precision. A real number that is defined on the base of infinity precision requires infinity time to reach with the same counting scheme -- the same way infinity requires infinity time to reach by 1, 2, 3, ... So if you allow infinity time, the same way you allowed infinity in your definition of real, then all real numbers can be reached (including infinity time) by counting -- not that provide any meaning.

Calculus is based on taking limit -- that is assuming a finite precision, albeit arbitrary. Infinitesimals are still finite, not infinite. Otherwise, you cannot divide them.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A set being "countably infinite" only means that you can write a function that maps each distinct entry in the set to exactly one natural number (0, 1, 2, etc.) without duplicates. That's it. So for example, the set of natural numbers is countably infinite and we know this because we can write a function that maps each natural number to exactly one natural number: the id function. We can extend this and say that the…

Here is how you do it. Have a function p(r) which evaluates to the previous real number. Then your mapping function is: f(r) = if (r == 0) { 0 } { else f(p(r)) + 1 } If your objection is "You can't determine what the previous real number is." Then my counter-objection is "Please prove that you can't." Which I don't think is possible without first assuming reals are uncountable.

Your definition of f is circular: to calculate f(r) we need to know p(r), which in turn depends on f(r).

Cantor's diagonal argument shows that any mapping from the natural numbers to the real numbers must necessarily miss some real numbers out. It takes some time to get your head around if you aren't used to mathematical proofs, but it's definitely worth looking it up and trying to work through it if you're interested in this subject.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#249
post #175

For those interested in constructive and intuitionistic approaches here Dummett's [0] Elements of Intuitionism is an extremely good read. Intuitionism is a form of a constructive foundation for mathematics which (a) notes that any attempt to deny the uncountability of reals leads to difficulties and (b) any attempt to internally define them violates constructivity. The resolution proposed is to posit the existence of…

All numbers are ultimately "probabilistic" in calculations.

Sure you can state them as a "fact", but that undermines quantum theory itself and the Universe.

If you want to do the math right you really need to consider terms as peak probabilities and work from there. (See Chaos theory)

IMHO

Of course doing math with hard constraints is perfectly adequate for most macroscopic calculations.

That said, errors do add up given sufficient entropy and time.

It's quite simple to add fuzziness into the equations but quite a pain in the ass to compute with, plus you will in most cases get the same answer anyway.

As far as real numbers, they are no different from integers, just shift the decimal.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#250

The continuity of real numbers provides a clean theoretical basis for continuity of functions. I personally view it as more of a theoretical tool that seems to do pretty well and instead steer clear of the philosophical questions. One thing that I think is important to note though is that the jump from real numbers to complex numbers is nothing compared to the jump from integers/rational numbers/etc. to real numbers.…

Given my experience when learning about complex numbers, I would rather say:

> The complex numbers come about by simply adding back the missing dimension

Mathematics makes so much more sense with complex numbers. Trigonometry a great example of this.

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