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Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

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Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#311

Post by abtinf »

demonshalo wrote: post #182
delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

You might enjoy this book. It's quite good.

https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Case-Fossil-Fuels/dp/1591847443

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#312

Post by bpizzi »

mirimir wrote: post #287
delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

Look, we're not "killing the planet". Humans are organisms like any other. Sure, human populations have spiked from millions to billions in recent millennia, and mean per capita resource utilization has increased dramatically. But that's just what organisms do. So anyway, the planet will be fine. Human civilization may collapse, given the risk of crop failure and war. But even humanity will survive. Edit: Many other…

That's my position too.

Whenever I get told a corrolary of 'the planet is more important than humanity' I automagically hear:

'look, I'm not really into this scientific thing where you guys seek truth with experimentations, logic and deep thinking. I guess I could, but frankly I don't see the point, I'm just going thru life, because, well, because. But, you see, I'm pretty sure this time we're having the last drop of our civilization because a {insert big fear here} is coming upon us and we can do nothing about it!'.

This has been going since the beginning of humanity I guess. Differents type of minds, as aliens to each others as are cats to dogs. Greek philosophers to roman plebe. Galilee and Copernic to their so-called peers. Technologist to ecologist.

That's the real danger we are still facing since the beginning: we're at the same time forced to collaborate to do something really meaningfull for our children (free and sustainable energy/food, freedom from work, long and diseases-free lifes, space-faring, etc), and utterly unable to communicate and seek consensus in a very efficient way.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#313

Post by IGI-111 »

imgabe wrote: post #256
demonshalo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

Trade-off: Humanity as a species ends. Which gadget do you feel is worth that?

Affordable enough space travel that we can survive.

Earth is just a bootstrap.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#314

Post by demonshalo »

Jare wrote: post #266
demonshalo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

> we are making one of the BEST trade-offs humanity has ever seen Either you believe that we are not heading to a near extinction-level event, that we will prevent it before it happens, or that such an event is a fair price to pay for enjoying a century of computers and iphones. The first option seems blind, the second baseless optimism, and the 3rd... I don't really know what to say. Is there a 4th?

>The first option seems blind

yea, just toss an opinion aside as blind because you don't like it. That will get people listening to your point of view!

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#315

Post by IGI-111 »

vitro wrote: post #300
adrianN wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity as a species won't end due to climate change. That's a ridiculous assertion. Full scale nuclear war probably couldn't wipe us out completely. Global warming can't either. Billions might die, but humanity will survive almost certainly.

If there is no air to breathe?

We'll make some.

The gamble we're making is that we're smart enough to survive in the most dire conditions.

That's a stupid gamble, but we might win. Plus we're on a roll so far.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#316

Post by PeterisP »

Jare wrote: post #266
demonshalo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

> we are making one of the BEST trade-offs humanity has ever seen Either you believe that we are not heading to a near extinction-level event, that we will prevent it before it happens, or that such an event is a fair price to pay for enjoying a century of computers and iphones. The first option seems blind, the second baseless optimism, and the 3rd... I don't really know what to say. Is there a 4th?

Do you believe that we are heading to near extinction-level event? As far as I have seen, even the most extreme predictions of climate change consequences don't come close to that.

I have seen predictions expecting mass forced migrations, decrease in sustainable population, etc; but unless you're literally expecting the vast majority of the worldwide population to die, it's not an extinction-level event, it's not near extinction-level event, it's an entirely different ballpark.

It might be a horrible catastrophe, it might change civilization as we know it, that's for sure, but there's really no valid reason to mention the term of extinction in this context. There are some risks/potential events that have a (low) chance of threatening extinction, but the expected climate change is not one of them.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#317

Post by dagw »

qplex wrote: post #285
dagw wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would definetly say it's a problem if workers in a factory can not afford the goods the factory produces Even if the factory is producing high end sports cars or precision engineered industrial machinery? For that matter I doubt even the CEO of Boeing could afford most of the 'goods' made in his factories.

I get your point. The CEO of Boeing can probably still afford to take a flight on a plane made by his company, and that probably is true of an average worker of a Boeing factory as well. So let me rephrase: if people working in a factory can only afford the very basic necessities and the actual goods the factory produces get shipped to the other side of the globe (and waste gets left behind), something is not right.

But certainly in the case of the iPhone a lot of them do get bought locally. Perhaps not by Foxconn factory floor workers, but certainly by a lot of other people in China.

I mean I kind of get the point you are trying to make, but Foxconn and iPhones aren't really a good example of that.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#318

Post by mirimir »

pantalaimon wrote: post #298
Touche wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're looking at the world's history with rose-colored glasses. World poverty is at the lowest levels today than it has been in recorded history: https://ourworldindata.org/slides/world-poverty/#/declining-... I think you'd be hard pressed to find a time in history when life was better than it is today. And if you did find one, it would be so long ago than population levels were a fragment of what they are n…

> I think you'd be hard pressed to find a time in history when life was better than it is today. That's nice and dandy but what good is it if we can only sustain that maybe another 50 years if we're lucky?

It really is too late, I think. There's too much momentum, and too little control. It's like that situation just before the Titanic hit the iceberg.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#319

Post by jnewkirk »

delegate wrote: post #145

The message I"m getting is not that I have to prepare for something or change energy sources , it's that "our lifestyle is killing the planet much faster than we thought". CO2 levels is just one of a myriad of indicators that are off the scale now. By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, ou…

This, indeed, hits the nail on the head. It is not an anti-technological rant, but a proper rant against technology as an end in itself. Big-picture thinking -- on the scale of the Earth and a timespan longer than one life -- inevitably overlaps with the spiritual; which is to say, how we live our lives; and the manner of our living is exactly what is having dramatic effect on the ecosystem now.

Re: Atmospheric CO2 levels accelerate upwards

#320

Post by demonshalo »

delegate wrote: post #249
demonshalo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By lifestyle I mean supermarkets and restaurants and iPhones and planes ... all the stuff that we're so proud of as a society. Winning, getting ahead, being number one, outcompeting, etc. All those ego-centric values that are the basis of our socio-economic systems - focused on disconnecting the `self` from `other` - are wrong on a fundamental level. By 'spirituality' I mean the deep realisation of the larger conte…

> the ONLY reason you can say this crap is simply because people competed ... and be pretentious and ungrateful about what society have achieved so far. Even though you're grossly exaggerating what I've said in the comment, I'm still going to answer with a rhetorical question: What good is all that shit if the price for that is the suffering and death of our children and eventual end of our species ? This is what the…

> My perspective comes from the summers spent with my grandparents

Seriously, get a grip and stop being self-absorbed. Read history before you long for something you've never actually truly experienced!

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