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Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

theguardian.com

181–190 of 204 posts

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#181
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow nice anecdotal evidence. You sure just changed my mind! I knew those environmental scientists were full of shit with their rigid studies and methodological collection of samples. There's no way they could have studied the coral reef as thoroughly as you have. Any other rapidly accelerating environmental destruction I should pretend doesn't exist while I'm at it?

I think you missed the point there. This may well be true, and I noted that. I sure believed when I was a teenager that the reef would be gone by 2000, which was what I was reading in the guardian weekely on airmail paper back when that was the thing. Why don't people care that something as amazing, beautiful, and awesome as the reef is under serious threat? Because we're all aresholes who love Trump/Tony/Maggie, obv…

Parents will often tell their kids they need to leave at a certain time because they expect their kids will not accurately gauge their limited time and will not meet the ultimatum.

I'm not saying this is the sole reason we get non-conservative estimates of environmental impact over a period of time, but it definitely applies. Most of us, due to various factors both in and out of our control, are too self-centered to understand that just because something will not disappear in our lifetime doesn't mean it isn't their immediate responsibility. It's best to assume the earth will shake and sky will split tomorrow and act accordingly. Sure, this alarmist approach can lead to burnout with a large, ignorant portion of the population but we can supplement this with proper education instead of trying to find a single golden bullet.

On top of that, we can only be so accurate when speaking about time-spans of climate-related events we have never had a chance to study as thoroughly as today. But the overwhelming majority of scientists who have found themselves studying the climate feel a great sense of urgency about making changes while we can. They know more than anyone how out of our control this will soon be and how it affects our interconnected ecosystems. So there is a tendency to lean on conclusions that make waves and turn heads.

And it's not just reefs. For example, the alarmist prophecies of our fuel supplies drying up within a matter of decades has probably contributed very positively to extreme efforts by international parties to greenify our energy production and transportation systems. I doubt people would be trying as hard to make the switch right now if we still had half a millennium of reserves left. It's kind of like how many of us tend to procrastinate on our own work and increasingly put in more effort as the deadline approaches.

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never flown on a commercial jet, have no kids, limit my consumption of meat and other products of the corrupt agriculture industry, and I don't own a car because I don't support extortion via insurance and I have a hard time convincing myself it isn't selfish to add more greenhouse gases to the air when I know better, even though "it's just me" and I'm one person. Don't be so quick to judge the members of your c…

First of all, that is amazing. But you are obviously the extreme exception (at least from my observations of other humans in America).

Unfortunately, you may be right about my lifestyle being exceptional in America. That doesn't make me feel good.

A lifetime of living on/underneath the poverty line and having guardians that couldn't keep a job or car or house of their own has helped shape my perspective on what constitutes as a "comfortable" life. I would like to travel more later in life but I will try to be as conservative as reasonably possible in my transportation methods.

I knew that a career in software/tech would allow me to live this way, but it's much more difficult to maintain this lifestyle in non-technical career paths. Couple that with forced societal and parental expectations to "get the car, get the job, get the house, get the girl" and incentivising propaganda, and it can be pretty tough to see any other option.

Poverty in America continues to rise and we may find the next generation to be much more environmentally conservative than us, not only because they weren't riding on a financial investment bubble like their grandparents but because they will expect to see the results of our environmental selfishness in their lifetimes.

But as for what we can do to educate Joe Schmoe, who is knee-deep in his mortgage and car and child support payments, who has a daughter in private school because the local school is terrible, who has no time in their work schedule to prepare their own meals, who takes an ocean liner cruise every two years because it's the only thing keeping them from killing themselves... well, I have no fucking clue. And that isn't good, because this is the average middle-class American. And we need the middle-class involved in environmental change because they have resources others do not and have greater capacity to adjust their consumption habits.

Telling Joe Schmoe about how we live conservative lives, and how he should be more like us is only going to make them more resilient to changing their minds.

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#183
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point there. This may well be true, and I noted that. I sure believed when I was a teenager that the reef would be gone by 2000, which was what I was reading in the guardian weekely on airmail paper back when that was the thing. Why don't people care that something as amazing, beautiful, and awesome as the reef is under serious threat? Because we're all aresholes who love Trump/Tony/Maggie, obv…

Parents will often tell their kids they need to leave at a certain time because they expect their kids will not accurately gauge their limited time and will not meet the ultimatum. I'm not saying this is the sole reason we get non-conservative estimates of environmental impact over a period of time, but it definitely applies. Most of us, due to various factors both in and out of our control, are too self-centered to…

Sure. You acknowledge the credibility problem that exists and justify it as great lies in service of great justice.

I don't make that justification. I believe that misinformation, propaganda and lies undermine the efficient allocation of resources to most effectively deal with the problems at hand (of which on this planet there are many, starting with 700m people without adequate access to clean drinking water). Whether such lies are told by oil companies, communists, facists, environmentalists, people calling themselves scientists bug engaging in politics or by some drunk, whether well-meaning or nefarious. Lies lead muddying of the decision making waters and to sub-optimal outcomes in the short term about specific decisions and then in the longer term, they destroy the process of the attempt at honest allocation leading to ridiculous populism of obvious lies and liars. Such people are provided with more ammunition than they need and can rightly claim themselves to be liars of the same kind. We've seen it before, we're seeing some more of it again and it may get worse before it gets better. It sure won't help the reef. "We're facing disaster but we can lie our way out of it?" Not much of a rallying cry. "Our lies are better than theirs!" Again...

This one continues to resonate with me, if you haven't read it I highly recommend you do and work out what you disagree with and why. http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better question would be: why should we care? I really don't see much value in spending a lot of effort and money into protecting a coral reef.

Because we, humans, are destroying planet we live on. You not seeing why we should even care makes me sad.

We're not destroying, just changing. According to our needs, which are paramount, IMO.

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better question would be: why should we care? I really don't see much value in spending a lot of effort and money into protecting a coral reef.

Are you asking for evidence of environmental utility provided by reef systems? There are plenty and my sister post already mentioned some of them. But the metric of "does putting in all this money and effort to fix the problem we created give us something back in return?" is absolutely poisonous. It's that selfish "is preserving this environmental habitat that has been around for millions of years worth my time or mo…

> that allowed us to dig this grave in the first place.

What grave? Things are better than ever!

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asking for evidence of environmental utility provided by reef systems? There are plenty and my sister post already mentioned some of them. But the metric of "does putting in all this money and effort to fix the problem we created give us something back in return?" is absolutely poisonous. It's that selfish "is preserving this environmental habitat that has been around for millions of years worth my time or mo…

> that allowed us to dig this grave in the first place. What grave? Things are better than ever!

I'm speaking of environmental impact. Sure, things may be looking good if you look at base crime statistics, hunger statistics, and war statistics. But certainly not if you look at the bigger picture. Way too many unknowns at this point in terms of consequences for unchecked industrialism for us to simply say, "Yep, things are good here."

But I'll bite. What metric are you using to say things are better than ever?

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, you're promoting the same fallacy: if something as a whole is bad then you're bad for doing it personally. That's not a fallacy. There's a direct and causal relationship between that "something as a whole" and you doing it personally. No one is saying that you alone are responsible for this systemic issue, but at least cop to your role in it.

I don't like it because it's a cop-out. It's no different from 'oh yeah, you think taxes should be higher? why don't you voluntarily pay more taxes then?'

That's not quite the same — there's no relationship between you voluntarily paying more on your taxes and tax rates. If we agree that tax revenue is too low, then yeah, you're doing a bad thing by not paying more.

Here's a better analogy still. Candidate X won a recent election, and you voted for them. If we agree that we knew that candidate was bad before the election, then you, individually, did a bad thing! No one person's vote decides an election, but the fact that millions of other people voted for the same candidate doesn't absolve you of your role in electing them.

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#188
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travelled up to Cairns from Melbourne last year and visited the reefs on a day trip. Whilst amazing, the bleaching had clearly started although not fully set in. It was as such a bitter sweet experience. I regret not going earlier, having been in Australia for over a decade - yet grateful to have seen it in some semblance of its glory before it's gone. And very sad - and angry - that it is going. I am angry because w…

I'm not sure to what extent WA has been affected but I grew up on the Houtman Abroholas Islands off Western Australia (500 km north then 50 km west of Perth) which are extremely beautiful and secluded (need to hire a plane to take you over and you are limited to one very beautiful large island.)

That sounds like a great place to grow up! I'll put this on my list of places to visit for whenever I have (a fair amount of) spare cash again. :-) I've yet to be in WA so should definitely do it at one stage.

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#189
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents will often tell their kids they need to leave at a certain time because they expect their kids will not accurately gauge their limited time and will not meet the ultimatum. I'm not saying this is the sole reason we get non-conservative estimates of environmental impact over a period of time, but it definitely applies. Most of us, due to various factors both in and out of our control, are too self-centered to…

Sure. You acknowledge the credibility problem that exists and justify it as great lies in service of great justice. I don't make that justification. I believe that misinformation, propaganda and lies undermine the efficient allocation of resources to most effectively deal with the problems at hand (of which on this planet there are many, starting with 700m people without adequate access to clean drinking water). Whet…

It's been a long time since I've read that. Thank you.

I do not think these are lies. Most of these scientific articles we read are highly sensationalized. The problem lies within the state of journalism. That isn't to say there aren't scientists who skew results to get more grant money, but that isn't really the case here. If you want a more accurate depiction of how the scientific community feels, stick to reading papers and not popular science news articles.

That being said... 2/3 of the country's reefs being bleached is not something you would consider a disaster?

You're conflating budgetary issues here. We can try to save the coral reef AND allot more money towards humanitarian efforts. That's the point of this article. They are forsaking their politicians for not making the right choices with their tax money. They are seeking international help. They aren't asking Doctors Without Borders to make a donation or bugging local food banks for money. They would probably rather the money come back from whatever scandalous Australian political/financial scams are going on. I don't know much about the state of affairs of the Australian government but don't you think this pretty much captures the issue?

Re: Great Barrier Reef at 'terminal stage'

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that allowed us to dig this grave in the first place. What grave? Things are better than ever!

I'm speaking of environmental impact. Sure, things may be looking good if you look at base crime statistics, hunger statistics, and war statistics. But certainly not if you look at the bigger picture. Way too many unknowns at this point in terms of consequences for unchecked industrialism for us to simply say, "Yep, things are good here." But I'll bite. What metric are you using to say things are better than ever?

We are healthier than ever, living longer than ever. More of our babies are surviving for longer, even in the poorest places on Earth.

We are using more renewable energy, less coal. Every year we add more solar/wind capacity than the past decade (just a guess). Soon, driverless electric cars will transport people autonomously, without creating any pollution, and road accidents will dwindle down to ~0.

More people have access to clean water, modern medicine, and we have treatments/preventions for the deadliest of diseases.

I mean, what's not to love?

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