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Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

reuters.com

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Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#51

Post by inopinatus »

kingnothing wrote: post #8

"Experienced COBOL programmers can earn more than $100 an hour when they get called in to patch up glitches, rewrite coding manuals or make new systems work with old." Any contract-based engineer would charge that, or more, regardless of the language. Fortune 500 companies are happy to pay $300 / hour to a consulting company for engineering time.

I just assumed that $100/hr sounds like a lot to the journalist in question and therefore "more than $100/hr" was simply their top categorisation of compensation.

Bear in mind that this is something like four times the average in private industry, and fifteen times the minimum wage.

My general rule for stories by journalists - even experienced ones - covering any technical industry is that their use of facts is often extremely loose, and if something seems awry, distrust the story first and question your understanding of the domain second.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#52

Post by sanguy »

Been working on accounting systems in RPG and COBOL since ~1992. I also know C/X86ASM/Pascal/Delphi/VB/Fortran. Never bothered with C++ that much; played with Java a bit but Oracle irritates my bowels so moved away from that.

As mentioned in the article it's good work; but it is also not easy work. You tend to go through cycles of being pushed out to brought back under extreme emergency at any costs to get stuff working. Only for the cycle to repeat. Companies never think of the old guys as the ones to implement the new system - that's a job for the "enterprise experts" - I can't even keep track of how many "rewrites" I've seen in my life fail because of this.

We are the dinosaur club; but it's a club that pays extremely well (high 6 figures a year without working too hard if you are talented and have a good client base and reputation), but like fossil fuel one day it will all be gone ;)

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#53

Post by StillBored »

$100 an hour, so $208k a year (assuming no time off), for a guy with 30+ years working on a critical system in an industry where floor traders can make 7-8 figures, and huge bonuses are paid to "analysts". I have plumber buddies that make more than that per hour (and with a crew can make more a year).

That's why a couple years ago when I had access to a zseries, and was hearing about how "desperate" the banks were I took a look. What I discovered are salaries that are some of the lowest in the IT industry and a cynical attitude towards hiring. AKA, banks would rather pay $40k a year for a "system operator" which is generally the ground floor for learning anything about a mainframe than hire someone with a comp-sci degree and teaching them the system while promoting them.

So, no thanks (you can fill in a less polite version), the banks can go to hell.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#54

Post by movedx »

sanguy wrote: post #52

Been working on accounting systems in RPG and COBOL since ~1992. I also know C/X86ASM/Pascal/Delphi/VB/Fortran. Never bothered with C++ that much; played with Java a bit but Oracle irritates my bowels so moved away from that. As mentioned in the article it's good work; but it is also not easy work. You tend to go through cycles of being pushed out to brought back under extreme emergency at any costs to get stuff work…

I smiled at your last comment. You're clearly a charming individual :-)

Out of interest, what's the solution here? With your experiences in mind, what are the banks doing wrong from a technological perspective?

I get the impression banks should almost start again on the side, building a completely new bank they then (manually?) move customers over to, or just use to take in new customers whilst waiting for the previous ones to die out. I guess if they built a whole new system, wouldn't it then be a "simple" case of doing a money transfer into the new system?

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#55

Post by flukus »

dsr_ wrote: post #10

The problem is technical debt. Banks didn't realize they were software houses, they thought that IT was a tool.

It is amazing how many companies don't think they're software companies, even though they are 100% reliant on their in house software. "We aren't a software company" is even a direct excuse I've heard a few times to justify ignoring technical debt.

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#56

Post by movedx »

StillBored wrote: post #53

$100 an hour, so $208k a year (assuming no time off), for a guy with 30+ years working on a critical system in an industry where floor traders can make 7-8 figures, and huge bonuses are paid to "analysts". I have plumber buddies that make more than that per hour (and with a crew can make more a year). That's why a couple years ago when I had access to a zseries, and was hearing about how "desperate" the banks were I…

Not sure if the $100/hour figure quoted is a hard and fast cash amount banks strictly adhere to, but ultimately this is business, so: set your price and walk away if it's not met.

I set my price: AUD$850/day, with a TINY bit of wriggle room, and that's final. I know my worth (from a skills perspective and market/economical one.)

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#57

Post by bananaboy »

cdsx wrote: post #17
catmanjan wrote: post #6

From the article "Experienced COBOL programmers can earn more than $100 an hour" In Australia that's a lot, but my understanding is that it's common for American developers to be on way more than this...

I'm curious what your experience in Australia has been for you to think that. In my experience that's not what I'd call a lot in Australia, most commonly your average basic IT contactor will charge $80-120/hr, let alone any sort of speciality.

What's a basic IT contractor? $100 seems to start getting to the upper end of what I'd call a basic IT contractor. > $100 seems to be for more management/architect type roles according to http://au.hudson.com/portals/au/documents/salary%20guides/20... and http://www.greythorn.com.au/media/greythorn/greythorn%20mark....

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#58

Post by catmanjan »

Trundle wrote: post #30
catmanjan wrote: post #6

From the article "Experienced COBOL programmers can earn more than $100 an hour" In Australia that's a lot, but my understanding is that it's common for American developers to be on way more than this...

I used to charge $90/hour in Australia to set up wordpress brochure websites (and poorly at that). Anyone who thinks that's a lot in the contracting world is undervaluing themselves terribly.

So $100 isn't a lot?

I thought since that was the point they were trying to make that this example was an employee rather than a contractor...

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#59

Post by fratlas »

movedx wrote: post #56
StillBored wrote: post #53

$100 an hour, so $208k a year (assuming no time off), for a guy with 30+ years working on a critical system in an industry where floor traders can make 7-8 figures, and huge bonuses are paid to "analysts". I have plumber buddies that make more than that per hour (and with a crew can make more a year). That's why a couple years ago when I had access to a zseries, and was hearing about how "desperate" the banks were I…

Not sure if the $100/hour figure quoted is a hard and fast cash amount banks strictly adhere to, but ultimately this is business, so: set your price and walk away if it's not met. I set my price: AUD$850/day, with a TINY bit of wriggle room, and that's final. I know my worth (from a skills perspective and market/economical one.)

Inc. Super/GST?

Re: Banks scramble to fix old systems as IT 'cowboys' ride into sunset

#60

Post by catmanjan »

cdsx wrote: post #17
catmanjan wrote: post #6

From the article "Experienced COBOL programmers can earn more than $100 an hour" In Australia that's a lot, but my understanding is that it's common for American developers to be on way more than this...

I'm curious what your experience in Australia has been for you to think that. In my experience that's not what I'd call a lot in Australia, most commonly your average basic IT contactor will charge $80-120/hr, let alone any sort of speciality.

I've always been in a startup or just a full-time employee - my point still stands though, if that's an average rate then why did the article point it out?
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