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How real are real numbers? (2004)

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61–70 of 275 posts

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#61
post #51

"So, in Borel’s view, most reals, with probability one, are mathematical fantasies, because there is no way to specify them uniquely." (Paraphrasing, because there are only countably many possible math papers that might describe a number.) I think Borel has confused names with things. The fact that we can only write down only countably many expressions for numbers doesn't mean that there are numbers that we may never…

Consider the set of all real numbers which you can actually specify IN ANY FASHION AT ALL, so that the person writing a paper about it and the person reading the paper are talking about the same number. This includes easy ones like "3" or "Square root of Pi". It includes oddballs like Chaitin's constant -- the probability that a randomly constructed program will not get stuck in an infinite loop (for some particular…

>Chaitin's constant -- -- which is so ornery a number that we cannot (even in THEORY) figure out a single digit of it (other than its being between 0 and 1).

You might be interested in:

https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~cristian/Calude361_370.pdf

"A Chaitin Omega number is the halting probability of a universal Chaitin (self-delimiting Turing) machine. Every Omega number is both computably enumerable (the limit of a computable, increasing, converging sequence of rationals) and random(its binary expansion is an algorithmic random sequence). In particular, every Omega number is strongly noncomputable. The aim of this paper is to describe a procedure, that combines Java programming and mathematical proofs, to compute the exact values of the first 64 bits of a Chaitin Omega: 0000001000000100000110001000011010001111110010111011101000010000"

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#62
post #51

"So, in Borel’s view, most reals, with probability one, are mathematical fantasies, because there is no way to specify them uniquely." (Paraphrasing, because there are only countably many possible math papers that might describe a number.) I think Borel has confused names with things. The fact that we can only write down only countably many expressions for numbers doesn't mean that there are numbers that we may never…

Consider the set of all real numbers which you can actually specify IN ANY FASHION AT ALL, so that the person writing a paper about it and the person reading the paper are talking about the same number. This includes easy ones like "3" or "Square root of Pi". It includes oddballs like Chaitin's constant -- the probability that a randomly constructed program will not get stuck in an infinite loop (for some particular…

> Consider that great big set. It's still countable.

You didn't prove that statement, and actually Cantor's diagonal arguments [1] proves you wrong:

Consider the set of «all real numbers which you can actually specify IN ANY FASHION AT ALL». If you can count it, you can order them in a certain fashion: n0, n1, n2, n3 … It's easy to specify a number X which is not part of this set (which is in contradiction with the definition of this set, and demonstrates ad absurdum that this set is not countable). To build such X, consider the n-th decimal of the n-th number: if it's zero, the n-th decimal of X is 1, otherwise the n-th decimal is 0. Then by construction, X is different from any number of this set, which mean X is not a part of the set. □

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#63
post #53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not sure I follow. Set of non-kings is not ill-defined, not in the same way as set of numbers non-describable by any formal system is.

> Set of non-kings is not ill-defined, not in the same way as set of numbers non-describable by any formal system is. Um... roughly the same. Is Robert Mugabe a king? Since we didn't give a clear and precise definition of "king" you can't really say.

No, my "ill-defined" means "will lead to contradictions if you look too closely", not "I haven't exactly specified what it means".

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#64
post #55

Note that the probability of randomly picking a rational number from [0,1] is exactly 0. That is, with P=1 you will end up with an irrational number, not representable in any modern computer.

That's a much less profound statement, though, because you're talking about an implementation detail of "modern computers".

First of all, the set of values in the range [0,1] that can be represented by a computer is not at all the same as the set of rationals. If you're talking about fixed-point or floating-point data types, then there are only a finite number of bit patterns (corresponding to dyadic rationals), so obviously the probability of hitting one of them precisely is zero.

You may think I'm just being pedantic here, but I'm really not. The theorem you described is only interesting because there are an infinite number of rationals between zero and one, and yet the set still has measure zero. But if you're willing to say that any rational number is theoretically "representable" in a computer, then you're already assuming that we can go beyond the natively-available data types, and come up with our own representations -- e.g., a tuple of numerator and denominator. And in that case, we can also come up with representations of irrational numbers; for example, you could have a datatype that can finitely specify any algebraic number, such as sqrt(2) or the golden ratio. So the fact that a typical CPU happens to only be able to natively deal with rationals is irrelevant.

The beauty of the diagonalization argument described in this paper is that it applies to all possible discrete representations, no matter how weird or complex, without having to make any assumptions.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#65
post #55

Note that the probability of randomly picking a rational number from [0,1] is exactly 0. That is, with P=1 you will end up with an irrational number, not representable in any modern computer.

This is a mind-blowing. So rational numbers are an invention of humans. That is to say, natural numbers simply don't exist unless and until they are explicitly defined. Am I understanding correctly?

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#66
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but you defined the number just fine, right? "Compute" is a separate issue from "define", you can't compute a lot of things. Is this going in the intuitionistic logic direction?

Even though you defined the number, you can't really do usual stuff with it: e.g. you can't compare it to other numbers. IMO, these kind of numbers are no more "real" than infinitesimals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number

Oh it's definitely more real, as in it belongs to R and not to any of its extensions. You guys realize that the definition of R is non-controversial in modern math, right? There are fringe theories like constructivist logic and other groups that reject all infinite constructions, but this is not the consensus view among practicing mathematicians...

The way you defined that number makes it a perfectly valid element of the set R, as described by, say, the axiomatic definition here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_number#Axiomatic_approach

Whether it's easy or hard or computationally intractable to compare it to other numbers, that's a totally different question unrelated to its definition.

Plus, you can actually empirically compute a finite set of initial digits (a specific Turing machine can be analyzed to see if it terminates or not), so you can compare this number with one that's constructed by flipping its digits, or with pi, etc.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#67
post #51

"So, in Borel’s view, most reals, with probability one, are mathematical fantasies, because there is no way to specify them uniquely." (Paraphrasing, because there are only countably many possible math papers that might describe a number.) I think Borel has confused names with things. The fact that we can only write down only countably many expressions for numbers doesn't mean that there are numbers that we may never…

Consider the set of all real numbers which you can actually specify IN ANY FASHION AT ALL, so that the person writing a paper about it and the person reading the paper are talking about the same number. This includes easy ones like "3" or "Square root of Pi". It includes oddballs like Chaitin's constant -- the probability that a randomly constructed program will not get stuck in an infinite loop (for some particular…

What about phrases that specify some numbers on Thursdays, and another numbers when Moon is in second quarter?

What about phrases that some people agree specifies a number, while other people think it's another number, and yet another people just aren't sure?

What about phrases that specify one and the same number for a specific person, but once that person reached age of 40, then he/she is not sure anymore?

I just making counter-examples to Jules Richard paradox formulation, showing that it's not properly formalized, but rather expressed in vague language, so cannot be considered strict mathematics.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#68
post #55

Note that the probability of randomly picking a rational number from [0,1] is exactly 0. That is, with P=1 you will end up with an irrational number, not representable in any modern computer.

Really? Interesting. I would have expected it to be something like epsilon.

I'm not sure if this is entirely mathematically valid, but it's at least intuitively valid. Imagine we're in decimal (for familiarity). Imagine we're generating our random number by drawing digits out of a bag containing the ten digits, then replacing and drawing again. This is of course a magical perfectly uniformly distributed bag.

In order to draw a rational number, you must randomly select a number that has a repeating pattern in decimal. Imagine that for the sake of argument that we're in this "repeating pattern" and, amazingly, we've already drawn it 1000 times! What a roll we're on! In order for the number to be rational, how many more times must we draw this pattern? Infinitely many. What is the probability that in one of those infinite fair random draws, the repeating pattern gets broken? 1. It's just not possible for infinitely many fair draws to produce a repeating pattern; that would be proof that the process generating the number was in fact not random in the first place. (I can't be that sloppy if we're doing finitely many draws but I believe that's justifiable at infinity.)

Imagining through this process of drawing a random number I think makes this more intuitively obvious than imagining being presented with a completed number and trying to figure out if it's rational.

Re: How real are real numbers? (2004)

#69
post #55

Note that the probability of randomly picking a rational number from [0,1] is exactly 0. That is, with P=1 you will end up with an irrational number, not representable in any modern computer.

This is a mind-blowing. So rational numbers are an invention of humans. That is to say, natural numbers simply don't exist unless and until they are explicitly defined. Am I understanding correctly?

The answer to your question kinda gets into question-begging about what you mean about "invention". But, nominally, all numbers you know are inventions of humans. Exactly how well they correspond to the real universe is still an open problem. Obviously in many cases the answer is "well enough that you need not worry about the deviations very often", but things like "Is the universe continuous or discrete at the core, or some hybrid?" are open questions, which has direct implications on the question of how "real" any of the numbers are. Even the naturals may be quite artificial.
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