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The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

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Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#401
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there's that much, in general, since a lot of jobs just need a floor. But when it's used as a proxy for IQ test, the better you do at algorithms the higher IQ you probably have, and that typically correlates with better job performance, or being able to transform one's job into one with higher impact. (Even more if they have high Conscientiousness too but I don't think algorithms would correlate much with tha…

The problem with testing algorithms is that it in no way tests intelligence. I would think that 9 out of 10 programmers that know an algorithm would not be able to derive the algorithm from first principles. So you are just testing esoteric knowledge - it's qualitatively no different that asking someone questions about a specific framework / API. You could make the argument that algorithms tend to be studied more by…

I don't think someone with an IQ of 80 could program Djikstra's algorithm given a mathematical description of it with diagrams. I'm even skeptical of programming binary search. They might understand an intuitive explanation involving a phone book but I don't think they could program it. And even if they could, I think someone with an IQ of 120 would do it much faster, though both solutions would likely have the integer overflow bug that was even in Java's implementation for a long time. So I think algorithms do test intelligence, just not as well as an actual IQ test. It can easily be gamed by sheer memorization, whereas good IQ tests can't. I agree that other things like ability to play chess would probably test just as well as algorithms. If the industry switched to testing candidates to see if they can solve chess problems, or play a computer self-limited to some specific ELO, you can bet that everyone who was serious about getting a job in the industry would start playing a lot of chess, and those with higher IQs will on average play better chess.

When I have to give an interview and have to include an algorithms section I make candidates type code. Whether that's on a phone screen with a shared online text editor or in person with their laptop / an interview laptop, I want them to type stuff, not just rely on whiteboard pseudo-code and diagramming. As a vim user I discount that their editing environment may not be what they're used to but even if I was forced to use Notepad I could still bang out a function to test the even/oddness of a number (my own fizzbuzz) pretty quickly. So I at least make sure to test coding, even if poorly.

I agree work-sample tests are the best, but as another commenter noted if they take a lot of time for the applicant you're going to get people who refuse that just as some refuse to play the algorithms game. Especially if people have a github repo, especially if some of the projects they've worked on have had more than themselves as commiters, especially if they're currently employed as a developer at some other company that does general software. Unless you're trying to build a top team, which most projects don't need, you're wasting a lot of time trying to rank beyond "would work out ok" and "would not work out at all". I have a section in my phone screen that tests for regex knowledge, I'm primarily just testing to see if they know the concept or if when faced with a problem that regexes can solve (which actually does happen from time to time) they reach for writing some custom parser or not. If they vaguely remember there's a way to specify a pattern and find matches, that's a Pass. If they know grep/their language of choice's regex syntax and can give a full solution, great, I'll rank them slightly higher than someone who just knows the concept, but all I really care about is the concept. If they don't know the concept, that's a strong sign (to me) they won't work out.

I tried to do a semi work sample test with an intern candidate a few months ago instead of a different test, based on experience with a prior intern who struggled on something I thought was basic and left me wondering why I didn't catch that in the phone screen. Basically I gave them some stripped down code from several files that looks a lot like what we have in production (JS, using Backbone) explained the overall mapping from bits of code to what could be shown on the screen, and essentially asked them to add a new component (already written) to one part of the screen by modifying/filling-in-the-functions in a few places. It required them to read and understand some alien code, see what they can ignore, understand what was asked, and then do it (initialize something, pass it around, up to I think 3 indirect function calls of nesting, call a couple things on it). The candidate got through it, I'm not sure the old intern would have...

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#402
post #59

As someone with many interviews coming up in the near future, this scares me. It's easy to get in a self-conscious feedback loop when you know every behavior, response, and gesture is being fed into a fundamentally irrational character-judging process. The best interview I've ever been on was one for a young startup. They gave essentially a homework problem, a day to solve it, and then in the interview we talked abou…

Relax. Look, I've spent time at a small startups in the tech sector, then at a tech giant, then in finance (where I went on to found a small shop of my own). I can safely say that it's pretty random and all you can do is increase your odds by studying.

At the end of the day, it's pretty well known that at any big tech company a second pass through the interview process would easily cut out a lot of the people there. Could be a bad day, a question you don't remember, etc.

I personally now only ask the homework type of questions. Making sure to give the person plenty of time to do it. Works really well but obviously someone won't like it (though I've yet to run into the mythical person turned off by having to do a simple coding project that HN keeps talking about...)

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#403

They're useless if it's attempt to prove you know more tham them about some algorithm that's been implemented 150x times (every job interview in California). I'd rather work with someone pleasent, hard working, and concerned with everyone's well being.

Hell, all I want is someone that could easily learn and understand an algo they're not already familiar with if needed. I remember being asked to basically implement the Day-Stout-Warren algorithm in an interview a few years ago and wondering what that person really learned about me from that memorization exercise.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#404
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done interviews at a few of time, I'd say that's mostly false, at least for the last 2-3 years. As far as I can tell, there's always a pre-defined pool of questions. Some of them are pretty 'open ended', but still targeted towards getting a good impression of a certain area of knowledge. That being said, I had an interview with Google at some point in the past where one of the interviewers almost seemed appall…

Recently I failed an interview at Facebook because I chose to serialize a binary tree into a list of N items, rather than a list of N items and O(N) sentinels. Most of the interview was spent convincing the interviewer that this could possibly be correct.

n sentinels? What do you mean?

Do you mean characters to indicate a null child?

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterexample: I did not apply to, nor interview for, my current gig, and I'm not cheating by working for myself. And I bet almost everyone reading this has worked with at least one person they think shouldn't have survived the interview, and that person was making a boatload because they convinced the boss they're brilliant. Meanwhile 90% of their day was spent talking about how great they are, and 10% creating new…

> Interview processes also vary wildly—you can't really say that it works without defining 'it.' Are we talking multiple technical screens that require writing code or a single fluffy buzzword-laden conversation with a C-level? Both have failure modes, but those failure modes sure are different. End of the day, everything evens out. People add the structure they need when they hire people. If your engineering intervi…

Did you read the article? People add the structure they think they need to interviews, but are clearly able to troll themselves into worsening their judgments by requiring steps that not only don't help, but actively hurt.

And this is a near universal phenomenon. Almost everyone wants to "get to know the candidate."

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to `man ps` on my Mac, there are nearly seventy of them - how many did he want you to know?!

It's been a long time since I interviewed an ops person. But when I did something like this, I'd ask, "Name as many arguments to ps as you can." (Or ls, also good.) I didn't really care about which flags they knew. What I was looking for was a pattern. Anybody good knows some arguments cold. Often they know them so well as part of a phrase that they have to think about what the individual ones mean, which tells me th…

I'd probably be snarky and say "I don't know - but I can google it!"

/actually I'd probably hit up the man page first...

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google tries to keep interview questions confidential - that's why candidates sign an NDA - and periodically rotates out questions that have appeared in public. Many engineers are also continually trying to think up new questions as well, usually based on their work. For most questions, there's no "right" answer, but there are a set of points that the interviewer wants to see you touch on. For example, they might fir…

What about when you know what the concept of big O is, know why it's often touted as important, and disagree that it's as important as it's touted? My opinion is that big-O often ends up being used as a premature optimization effort hindering "just get the right answer first". Maybe that brute force method will work in a reasonable clock-time cost, despite having egregious algorithmic cost. You won't know if you're b…

I've always called this kind of thing "trying to get the sizzle before the steak". You gotta have a steak first; get that, then work on cooking it - then work on cooking it to perfection if that is what is needed or wanted.

There's also the thing I picked up from playing around with graphics demo coding; get the algorithm working first, even if it takes 10 seconds per frame. Then look for the slow parts, concentrating first on the inner loops. Whatever you do, don't try to prematurely optimize the code as you write it, as tempting as it may be. Because almost certainly you'll make things worse than if you waited until after you have a working first pass.

This applies to way more than just fast graphics code, of course.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#408
The problem is that most people have no training in how exactly to interview someone. It's like asking people with no training in building rockets to get you to the Moon and then deciding that because because they failed tickets are "utterly useless".

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's interview process is the single shining example of the worst interview process I've ever been through. So much so I actually took the interviewer to task for it. It may be good at screening University graduates but it's pretty awful at anything else. It's also really obvious that the interviewers don't actually know how to interview people and are pretty much cargo-culting the same process that hired them. A…

Getting candidates to jump through crazy hoops is a sensible strategy for a big organization. It selects for compliance, which is important when your enterprise is too complex, uncertain or fast-moving to operate by consensus

A fair point, though not really a defense as such ;)

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they should probably ask people to estimate a thing that's even remotely relevant to the job. (I mean, I get it, this kind of general estimation and/or ball-parking can be incredibly valuable, but this doesn't sound relevant in any way.)

This kind of general estimation and/or ball-parking can be incredibly valuable, but this doesn't sound relevant in any way. To be fair to Google (in regard to this one filter question only), they actually are up front about expecting a significantly higher baseline of general mathematical awareness (even for non-mathy roles) than most other shops. At any rate, this kind of estimation comes up in capacity planning (bo…

It "comes up all the time"... and these ballpark guesses are probably(!) completely useless for anything remotely practical. At the scale Google's operating you want a Statistician, not a Guesstimator.

So, no, still not useful questions.

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