311–320 of 549 posts
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not like united employees going on vacation or to a meeting. But a flight crew going to where they need to be. It's part and parcel of an airline service. If they can't get to where they need to be a flight will have to be delayed or canceled.
If it was flight crew, how on earth did they not know how many employees would be needed ahead of time?
The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…
I agree. I will point out that it is not United that "chose" violence. They asked the police to intervene. The state is supposed to have a monopoly on physical force, so they did. Now, for the police, violence has always been normal, or normalized. Consider the appropriate responses: 1. An airline should not call in the police when dealing with customers because they can reasonably expect violence. 2. The police shou…
Yes, there's a fairly wide belief in this, including by many leaders in law enforcement; that is, that American police have been trained in a means which over-encourages use of force, and that this should be changed (in some places, the work has begun an implementing such a change.)
A key write-up of this is: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/248654.pdf
EDIT: also:
> I will point out that it is not United that "chose" violence. They asked the police to intervene.
Asking the police to intervene because the state has a monopoly on violence, so they are free to use it in ways you are not, is choosing violence, even if the police might also veto that choice. So the issue is exactly that United chose violence.
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The airline had plenty of options. When you ask the police to intervene, you are explicitly requesting a violent resolution.
When you ask the police to intervene, you are explicitly requesting a violent resolution. You're asking the police, a third-party representing the state and its acknowledged monopoly on legitimate use of force, to become involved. That doesn't necessarily mean that the resolution will or must be violent.
Much more useful would be deescalation and mediation, but that is not the training given to US police.
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> Involuntary Deny Boarding I don't have the contract at hand, but by the above wording, the man was already boarded...
From my understanding, you're correct. Deny Boarding can be avoided by checking in early. These people had boarded and the plane was full before the mistake was realized. EDIT: Still unsure as to the legality of this. IDB is well established, but the fact that everyone has boarded is a different matter. Reading the contract of carriage did not bring any more light to this point. And let's be clear, denying someone an…
Airlines should make a better effort to avoid overbooking. If they can get away with this kind of despicable behaviour, they'll never improve.
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I don't think your average person will view this as being "fair". Specifically already being on the plane and effectively being evicted from your seat for no fault of your own I would call "unreasonable". Public opinion I think will also be very "unreasonable" regarding United in these circumstances.
The point is that it doesn't matter if it's "fair" or "unreasonable" in your eyes. It's lawful, and eventually you will be taken off the plane. The time to fight the battle is after you get off, not struggling against overwhelming odds and then getting charges piled on you.
Laws/rules don't change if people don't make a fuss about them being wrong.
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The passenger fucked up by refusing to leave. That is forcing a physical confrontation when it isn't needed.
I can't believe you're defending United's actions. In short, you're saying that the passenger asked for it. He maintained his dignity as a human being by not acquiescing to unethical actions taken against him. United may have the legal right to do this, but they are certainly unethical in doing so. I fully support this man's behavior.
And by I mean getting dragged off the plane. Some are spectulating he was beat off camera. Nothing would justify that.
But if you force someone to drag you off a plan, you are asking for the natural consequences.
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> I can't imagine that out of more than 100 people they wouldn't find at least 4 interested in waiting in the airport to travel 1st class. Apparently they did. The law is pretty clear on this. You can be refused a flight for this reason - United decided that they wanted the seat for their employee more than the passenger. Once the passenger starts resisting, he/she should get removed by any means necessary, up to and…
I don't think your average person will view this as being "fair". Specifically already being on the plane and effectively being evicted from your seat for no fault of your own I would call "unreasonable". Public opinion I think will also be very "unreasonable" regarding United in these circumstances.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
When you ask the police to intervene, you are explicitly requesting a violent resolution. You're asking the police, a third-party representing the state and its acknowledged monopoly on legitimate use of force, to become involved. That doesn't necessarily mean that the resolution will or must be violent.
What thing can the police do that United employees cannot? By requesting them, you are expecting them to do that thing.
They messed up and overbooked the flight, sure. But why on earth would they forcefully drag people out of the plane, while they could just find volunteers? They could offer cash/miles to whoever volunteered, increasing the offer until someone accepted. I've seen other airlines do this on several occasions. They couldn't have handled it worse than they did.
Hmmmmm....