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A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

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Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#161

Post by dboreham »

ErikAugust wrote: post #128
objclxt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's a federal crime to disobey instructions of the flight or the captain. If they ask you to leave the aircraft you're required to leave. If you refuse and need to be physically removed, tough. Not that I'm saying this makes United's behavior acceptable - I have no idea how they managed to load the plane before realizing they needed extra seats - just that the law is, in this case, on their side.

Was the person doing the assaulting federal law enforcement? Was he arrested? I don't think either of these are true. So, I don't think this is how any of this actually works.

It turns out that airline crew have infinite powers on their own planes (well...nearly). They can actually thrown someone off a plane on a whim. Source: I saw this happen last year.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#162

Post by [deleted] »

manacit wrote: post #119
MattSteelblade wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding, you're correct. Deny Boarding can be avoided by checking in early. These people had boarded and the plane was full before the mistake was realized. EDIT: Still unsure as to the legality of this. IDB is well established, but the fact that everyone has boarded is a different matter. Reading the contract of carriage did not bring any more light to this point. And let's be clear, denying someone an…

I believe your understanding is incorrect - someone can be denied boarding regardless of when they have checked into the flight. If there are 100 seats, they may sell 105 tickets and permit 105 people to check in - if they cannot find 5 volunteers they will have to IDB 5 passengers. While the rules aren't printed very well (I just scanned United's Contract of Carriage, and the Federal Code), I believe it counts as an…

[deleted]

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#163

Post by rtkwe »

jessaustin wrote: post #118
lotyrin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-shows. If you book at 100% you fly < 100% and that costs money.

Don't no-shows get charged anyway? With this policy they're making money coming and going.

Not if they cancel or reschedule which can be done up to about a day before in most cases without a fee. And there are very few people looking for a flight less than 24 hours before it departs so those seats would go unfilled most of the time.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#164

Post by [deleted] »

inimino wrote: post #112
treehau5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem is what society views as ethical or moral is now subjective to each on a variety of different factors in this post post-modern society. There was once puritanical values, however despised they are by certain factions, which unified the "ethos" of the nation on what is and is not ethical. The civil rights movement came along and augmented that ethos for the better. Now we have groups who place abando…

The golden age of unified national consensus on what is ethical is a myth.

[deleted]

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#165

Post by [deleted] »

inimino wrote: post #112
treehau5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem is what society views as ethical or moral is now subjective to each on a variety of different factors in this post post-modern society. There was once puritanical values, however despised they are by certain factions, which unified the "ethos" of the nation on what is and is not ethical. The civil rights movement came along and augmented that ethos for the better. Now we have groups who place abando…

The golden age of unified national consensus on what is ethical is a myth.

[deleted]

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#166

Post by ed_balls »

rtkwe wrote: post #136
ed_balls wrote: post #24

Why not use the jump seats?

Then the flight attendants wouldn't have had seats in the case of an emergency which I'm willing to bet isn't allowed.

A friend that works for Emirates managed to get this way to home on Christmas. There are usually 2 spare jump seats. You put 2 pilots there and 2 where the couple was. The flight is quite short.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#167

Post by [deleted] »

manacit wrote: post #119
MattSteelblade wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding, you're correct. Deny Boarding can be avoided by checking in early. These people had boarded and the plane was full before the mistake was realized. EDIT: Still unsure as to the legality of this. IDB is well established, but the fact that everyone has boarded is a different matter. Reading the contract of carriage did not bring any more light to this point. And let's be clear, denying someone an…

I believe your understanding is incorrect - someone can be denied boarding regardless of when they have checked into the flight. If there are 100 seats, they may sell 105 tickets and permit 105 people to check in - if they cannot find 5 volunteers they will have to IDB 5 passengers. While the rules aren't printed very well (I just scanned United's Contract of Carriage, and the Federal Code), I believe it counts as an…

[deleted]

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#168

Post by milesf »

This was such a simple problem to fix for United. They offered vouchers for people to volunteer. No one accepted. So keep raising the offer until 4 people accepted. Problem solved.

Instead they chose violence.

I will never fly United Airlines again.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#169

Post by inputcoffee »

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

I agree.

I will point out that it is not United that "chose" violence. They asked the police to intervene. The state is supposed to have a monopoly on physical force, so they did.

Now, for the police, violence has always been normal, or normalized.

Consider the appropriate responses:

1. An airline should not call in the police when dealing with customers because they can reasonably expect violence.

2. The police should be retrained not to use violence. (Is this reasonable? You can imagine other instances where this where this would endanger them.)

3. As a society, we should not let police deal with "civil" situations where violence might occur. Perhaps we need another "force"?

And so on.

edit: clarity of last point

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#170

Post by [deleted] »

zeveb wrote: post #150
toomuchtodo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's equipment waiting in Louisville, and another entire plane isn't going anywhere without them, that's how its justifiable. IDB means you can (legally) be physically removed from a flight. With that said, don't drag people off your flights. No matter what it costs you to get staff where they need to be when you make this mistake, it'll be cheaper than the negative publicity of a physical altercation removing…

> With that said, don't drag people off your flights. No matter what it costs you to get staff where they need to be when you make this mistake, it'll be cheaper than the negative publicity of a physical altercation removing a passenger (even if you need to retask a commuter aircraft just to relocate the crew, or ask another carrier to get them there). Of course, that just gives a hecker's veto to anyone insubordinat…

[deleted]
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