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The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

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Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#391
post #247
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- Lack of self awareness and introspection. Not being able to give specific examples of times you've made a mistake and how you learned from it. >- Shit talking old coworkers, general attitude that you're great and nothing is your fault. These are fair enough, although you did say above that the other coworkers in your old scrappy startups were much worse. > - Being unable to talk about YOUR specific contributions;…

> These are fair enough, although you did say above that the other coworkers in your old scrappy startups were much worse. Nope, I said the engineers I work with now are consistently better. "My current team is very good" is MUCH different from "my last team was very bad." (And I'm not in a job interview.) > Some people will struggle to take credit because of politeness. Isn't taking credit trivial to do? No, it's no…

> No, it's not so much about credit, it's about specificity and the ability to talk about the different parts of the project..."In our widget selling application, I worked on backend services for payment processing and fraud detection."

If that line is as detailed as you're looking for, then that's reasonable. Although I've seen people get annoyed that I don't remember the specifics of exactly what I implemented and why and a list of the various decisions made on projects that are 2+ years in the past.

At my current company I've worked on 300 tasks over the course of 2 years, across 30+ projects, ranging from simple bug fixes to implementing large swaths of new software for Fortune 100 clients. There are some similar items in there, but most of them were different.

I don't have an amazing memory, so a lot of the old stuff I worked on becomes very vague. Hell, it can take me time to remember what I need to do to work on something I haven't done in the past six months at my current company.

I know those old projects in broad strokes but if you want me to talk about a specific project in detail that happened years ago, then I will struggle to dig up those memories, even after reading a document I made that refreshes things a bit before interviews.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#392
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should publish because I know I and a lot of other people would be incredibly interested in divining this information during a job interview.

The best I've come up with is a few proxies, like their deployment process. Someone doing continuous or frequent deployments probably have pretty decent code quality. A company that takes several weeks, several rounds of QA and a dozen release documents that need to be signed in triplicate, they have that process because they've been burned and need scapegoats when the inevitable happens. The best part is that most p…

Yeah, that's basically all it takes. Talk to engineers about their everyday processes. (If the company doesn't let you talk to their engineers during the interview process, or if they're unwilling to discuss, consider that the huge red flag).

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#393
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heh, I can do this all day. I can see that! :D Thanks, you've been very helpful. Believe it or not, I am learning from this interaction. > Tact is important. I don't disagree and I'm with you here. But herein lies the dilemma -- I've been tactful and diplomatic way too many times for my taste. I've had my fair share of politics. I am not horrible in it; I simply started lacking any patience for it and thus my mood…

Happy to help! At the very least, just prove that you can keep your mouth shut if you think someone is the worst, heh. That's really all I'm looking for. ;) I also totally understand getting frustrated. I've been a total dick to my coworkers in the past, for lots of different reasons. I was burnt out, I was young, etc. I've mellowed out a lot over the years. A good chunk of that is also just being on a good team; it'…

Thank you for providing the helpful specifics.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#394
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google is more generous to good performers via bonuses once you are working there, but if you have two offers in hand, you are going to find Google highly resistant to negotiating. The notion of people taking a pay cut to work at Google sounds plausible to me. I don't think that's true. While google is by all accounts (including in my personal experience) unwilling to move significantly on base salary, they'll happ…

What they will not do is adjust for cost of living or differences in taxation when comparing an offer in Mountain View with one in a cheaper locale such as Seattle (which is where two of the companies you listed above are headquartered). Perhaps I dealt with a particularly nasty Google recruiter. I felt like the recruiter had misrepresented the health benefits and relocation package once I got the actual offer letter…

Ah, you're correct, I was specifically told "we don't take cost of living into account when deciding compensation" or similar language. (which isn't strictly true either)

That said, from what I've seen, compensation growth at Google from everything I've seen is faster than at the other companies, which means that for someone coming in at L>3, they will likely be given greater compensation at google than elsewhere.

I'm curious as to how they misrepresented things. I was actually pleasantly surprised once I got here by how extensive the benefits were, but I'm always interested in learning more, since while I actually think that 4 google interviews is a decent way to judge someone for google, I really hate their interview/negotiation process.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#395
I'm coming late to this discussion, but there is one point I'd like to make. Our "interviews" in the world of software engineering, are immensely different from "interviews" in the standard sense of the word.

I've worked in different fields, and I talk to people who work in other fields. Most of those fields work in a way that is described in this article - interviews are question and answer sessions, where people are evaluated by a number of highly subjective criteria. "Tell me about your fundraising experience?" "How do you deal with difficult clients or coworkers". That kind of thing.

Software interviews are exams. They're not "more like" exams, they are flat out exams. There is very little banter. The closest I've come in google and Netflix interviews has been the more open-ended system design style question they often put in there, but even that has an academic test quality to it.

It's pretty much 5 hours of technical exam. "How do you find all matching subtrees in a binary tree" might be a question - and you really are expected to get it written at the whiteboard. "Find all permutations of a set". "Find all square sub matrices in an NXM matrix." The "top" companies are good at modifying the question so that you must know how to do this but can't just regurgitate it.

Alternatively, you may do a "take home" exam. Most recently, I did a mini rails project. I actually liked my result, I kind of enjoyed writing it. However, it was a no-hire, one reason given was that my routing was non-standard. True. I hadn't really thought about it, it was a take-home, so I mainly focused on the UI and code, and just chucked in a couple of named routes for demo and testing purposes. The other reason was that there was some duplicate code (I disagreed and had a reason for this, but there is no chance to defend your code, you write it and send it in, and they say "no hire").

I have no idea if it was a real piece of crap and they were just being nice. It had 100% test coverage and git for version control, and implemented a few features. Unfortunately, like I said, I never got a chance to defend the code.

Our processes in high tech are badly broken. I'm probably done interviewing, my next job will have to be one that doesn't involve a software interview. The routing and duplicate code, along with a google interview, pretty much sealed the deal for me.

My advice to people is (this isn't my idea) be an X that programs, not an X programmer. Coding is an amazing tool for a job, but avoid making it your job. For instance, I actually know a fundraiser who does a lot of data science, and he's a rock star in his field, but I guarantee you nobody asks him to reverse a binary tree in an interview!

Best of luck out there. Our interviewing processes are their own special version of horridness, just not uselessness described here.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stupid trivia question. I use ps -ef and leave it at that. In my entire career I've rarely needed anything else and if I did I would look it up but never enough to remember. To base an interview question off of that speaks volumes about you.

Well, yes and no. If somebody just scored it as written, giving points for each argument known, it would be a dumb trivia question. But as I said, that's not what I do. Try it next time you're mingling with ops people. Say in a bar at a conference. Don't look at what they answer. Look at how they answer. Some people are comfortable not knowing. Some people are excited to discover the ones they forgot they knew. some…

Some people focus their curiosity on more important things than arguments for a command line utility.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#397
post #40

Take a second to read about the experiments this author conducted. They included: Dummy candidates mixed in with the interview flow that gave randomized answers to questions (interviews were structured to somewhat blind this process), and interviewers lost no confidence from those interviews. Interviewers, when told about the ruse, were then asked to rank between no interview, randomized interview, and honest intervi…

Meeting the "candidate" lets you apply some judgement about them that you can't use from just reading a CV (or just knowing their past GPA). How they look, how they dress, their accent, their body language, etc.

People think they can get valuable information from this, so they want to meet the candidates, even if they are told the answers are random.

You need to prove (and then convince people) that all this extra information (the impression a person makes when you meet them) doesn't improve your prediction of their future GPA over a prediction based only their past GPA.

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#398
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, put another way, they choose to accept a high rate of false negatives to avoid false positives. Which is how it is typically presented because it sounds much better than "reject a lot of candidates who would probably have worked out just fine". It is useful to perceive both the potential value in an approach like this and the shortcomings. Google can absorb the massive expense in man hours, lost opportunity, et…

Interviewing is hard. I wonder if a number of great candidates just refuse to interview with Google because it's too cumbersome? I know a couple of great folks who just dropped half way because they couldn't be bothered with Google's lack of organization and their lengthy process. Its not like Google pays the best or still has the best workplace. It's a large company with large company politics and red tape.

I wonder if a number of great candidates just refuse to interview with Google because it's too cumbersome?

I've met a few such people in this forum. Not many.

I'm not sure how one would even begin getting a rigorous estimate of that number. What is a credible sample of "great candidates" in this industry?

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine. If you go into something assuming that anything you don't understand is a malfunction, and you excuse your rude behavior with your mood and/or caffeine level, you're probably not the kind of person I'd want to spend a lot of time working with. That said, as I've explained elsewhere in the thread, the point isn't to see how many they know. It's to see that a) they know some portion of it that people doing…

The issue with this question falls into 2 main categories. The first is that its a rude question. The basic premise seems to be, "if you are an experienced ops person you have to know something about ps". Which may be true, but by asking it of an experienced operator you are hinting that you don't believe their resume. There is a much more straight forward way to see if they are lying on their resume, call their refe…

  >> admit when they don't know something... encourage you to validate that with data
Correlating this with employee performance data might not be the only metric.

My experience is that people that won't admit they don't know something are not necessarily bad employees. Often they are capable employees, although this is a trait I rarely see in the best employees. However, I find they are toxic to a good work environment, since they won't listen to people who do know something.

They do seem to get promoted to management had a much higher rate :)

Re: The Utter Uselessness of Job Interviews

#400
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but that doesn't sound like my interview at Google, which was interesting but really rather random. Perhaps most notably, one interviewer became irate that I didn't know the "ps -o" flags off of the top of my head. :-/

According to `man ps` on my Mac, there are nearly seventy of them - how many did he want you to know?!

He probably had at least five or ten in mind. I prefer other methods of extracting this information. Usually 'ps -efly' piped into tools like awk/etc to gather what I want, or on occasion, extracting directly from the /proc filesystem. He did not consider these to be proper alternatives.

Since the 'ps -o' flags are only useful in that one command, I just look them up in the (rare) situation where they seem the best alternative. Having been at this for decades, I try to reserve my limited memory capacity for factoids that will pay off, and being able to process columnar data generically at an instant seems more useful than knowing a special way to do it with that one command.

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